200NL - Two pair gets 3bet on the turn, standard fold or weak?

[mookboi]

?

Use pokerstove like.. during the hand? Between the ideal situations where you get A7 and he's stealing? What's his range? A lot of villains, myself included, are quite often stealing with any two cards there.

You might be right, and folding K7s or A7s there is a mistake, but all the scenarios you are suggesting are just not practical enough to work, in my opinion. Look at the OP - he pretty much got the perfect float/take away on turn scenario, I don't see him making a better hand than he did too often, and he's still in a [censored] spot.

Anyone else care to chime in? Maybe I'm not seeing it.

[Dantheman104]

sorry im maybe not explaining myself very well here but if you look at say bottom pairs equity against this guys raising range on flops such as the ones i mentioned earlier you'll see that its surprisingly good. cant do math now as playing, but the point is:
you play a7s k7s etc in this spot because you have position, and against a player like this even if you flop nothing you can exploit him in certain situations because he has nothing. even if he isnt the type to give up on the turn, there will be many situations when you can induce double barrels, etc. In the situation posted the board is too coordinated to do anything but fold, but i feel if you fold hands like this in these situations you're giving up a lot of ev in the long term. of course, if anyone disagrees, i like to hear why

[Clever Nickname]

I have to say I'm genuinely surprised at the number of people here advocating folding preflop/on the flop. I didn't even consider that it might be a leak, but obviously I'll have to think about it some more. That being said, for right now I still think preflop and flop are fine.

Someone advocated folding A7s in the BB to a 3xbb SB open, and that just seems crazy to me. Many players are opening in the SB so lightly that A7s is often well ahead of their range, and I just can't see how it can be right to fold a hand that's ahead of your opponent's range when you're getting 2:1 in position.

Likewise, I don't see how it can be right to fold a pair, even a weak one, for one bet in position on a fairly safe board like this against an aggressive opponent. It seems like we'll be folding the best hand way too often.

But hey, at least everyone agrees with me about the turn fold [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[ebalf]

Even if I may look like a calling station - I'd maybe call that bet and rather prefer to go all-in (after all he has to be afraid of you holding a set or straight).
Possible hands that would be played that way including the re-raise:
77 88 JJ AA
T9 AK KJ K8
Adxd QdTd Qd9d 6d5d
total air (since your raise wasn't THAT big and indicates some weakness)

[sdfsdf]

preflop, i fold this 100% of the time but i know people who are better than me who regularly call this, so if you have a plan for bluffing if you miss the flop then its a good call. on the turn i push. are you scared of his small turn raise? i know that if he pushed it would be an easy call for me. he could have a lot of FD + gutshot combos, TQ, AA, weaker 2pair, or maybe KA. his small 3bet is scary, but i'm not raising this turn with the intention of folding.

[RocktheCasbah]

Why raise the turn if your gonna fold his 3B?

Preflop I like 2 things - to be in position and be the aggressor. Therefore if I decided to play K-7, A-7, wotever, I'm gonna RR PF or just fold.

As played I fold flop, but once you make 2 pr I would get AI on turn

[Clever Nickname]

[ QUOTE ]
preflop, i fold this 100% of the time but i know people who are better than me who regularly call this, so if you have a plan for bluffing if you miss the flop then its a good call. on the turn i push. are you scared of his small turn raise? i know that if he pushed it would be an easy call for me. he could have a lot of FD + gutshot combos, TQ, AA, weaker 2pair, or maybe KA. his small 3bet is scary, but i'm not raising this turn with the intention of folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, I can't see most players at 200NL 3-betting here with AA/AK/draws; I would expect most players holding these hands to just call the raise. The only hand I think I can reasonably put him on that I'm ahead of is 87 or maybe a J8s, while I'm being crushed by sets/KJ/T9.

[Clever Nickname]

[ QUOTE ]
Why raise the turn if your gonna fold his 3B?

[/ QUOTE ]

To get value from hands like AK/AA, which (I think) are much more likely to just call me down than to re-raise here.

[0evg0]

folding preflop is so beyond ridiculous

flop is obv standard

turn is close, but yes fold

[kewl_cph]

If SB is tight/nitty I don't mind folding preflop. My experience is that many of these players hate playing blind vs. blind OOP and when they do raise out of the SB, IME they often show up with a pretty big hand.