FS: Crying call correct? Play flop differently?

LOwrestling2001 · #1 12-07-2006, 02:12 PM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($14.80)
BB ($25)
UTG ($18.60)
MP ($22.40)
Hero ($28.05)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises to $0.75, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.5, SB calls $1.40, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.75.

Flop: ($4.75) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets $2, Hero raises to $10, SB folds, UTG calls $8.

Turn: ($24.75) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets $7.1 (All-In), Hero calls $7.10.

River: ($38.95) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $38.95

So villain, i forget his stats exactly, but he was not tight, but not super loose, somewehre in the middle. I was somewhat afraid of QT when i saw the flop, because i figured that hand could be in the villain's range (i think? still learning). Anyways, so i made that raise, and as u can see, on the turn, he went AI, and I figured he had to have a 10...which means i would only have what, 3 outs to win the hand? I felt somewhat pot committed so i made the call, haha and it was a crying call on my part =\, I was wondering if you guys could criticize the moves i made for me, i wrote this just so you have an idea of what's going on in my head. Thanks hehe.

Abramovic · #2 12-07-2006, 02:16 PM

Preflop reraise is too small.

I think you have to call this turn. There is already $25 in the pot, and although I cant think of a hand you beat(possibly AK,AJ)...I call it anyway.

RollTide77 · #3 12-07-2006, 02:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop reraise is too small.

[/ QUOTE ]I disagree. I think you RR'd fine b/c you don't want to spook him off which you will by betting more. But once you do that you have to understand what kind of hands he might make a big call like that with. Me, if I'm him, I'm not calling that PF with less than a high pocker pair or high suited. In which case you are either beat by a straight or a set. I definitely don't bet $10 after the flop. That's an overbet to me and alot of people will call that. Then once they do, you are put in an all-in situation and you really have no idea what to do. You lucked out on this one but to me you're gonna lose alot of $ by playing this type of hand this way over the long term.

Crimsonjade · #4 12-07-2006, 03:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop reraise is too small.

[/ QUOTE ]I disagree. I think you RR'd fine b/c you don't want to spook him off which you will by betting more. But once you do that you have to understand what kind of hands he might make a big call like that with. Me, if I'm him, I'm not calling that PF with less than a high pocker pair or high suited. In which case you are either beat by a straight or a set. I definitely don't bet $10 after the flop. That's an overbet to me and alot of people will call that. Then once they do, you are put in an all-in situation and you really have no idea what to do. You lucked out on this one but to me you're gonna lose alot of $ by playing this type of hand this way over the long term.

[/ QUOTE ]

What kind of rationale is this? This min raise is bad. People are likely to call a min raise no matter what. So you just paid for zero information. You pop this guy with a decent raise and you can put him on a tighter range when he calls. That way when he does donk-bet into me I can make an informed decision whether I want to re-pop him for $10 or get out now.

SirNeb · #5 12-07-2006, 02:27 PM

pay attention to the villian's stack size, if you are making that bet, you might as well shove. You forced him into pushing no matter what the turn is. Maybe that's your plan, but I read what you wrote, that's definitely not it. I mean you make this bet on the flop, if he reraise you all in, you are calling anyways right? So the question here is, what are you trying to do by raise? value? bluff? test the waters? If it's value, any decent player would probably fold on a raise that takes more than half of their stack or go all in if he calls.

Also, the way you are playing here, you have already decided you will call/go all in no matter what happens on the flop. AA is strong but it's a very vulnerable hand, it's not a hand you want to play blindly on the flop. Biggest mistakes by a lot of decent players is that they overplay these high pockets when they have obviously told everyone their hole cards on the flop. Villians will know how to play them perfectly. Hence this is why these same hands are often unprofitable because you win small and lose big.

crookdimwit · #6 12-07-2006, 02:50 PM

Yep. Raise more preflop, or a flop like that comes down and you have to worry about lots of very plausible two pair or straight possibilities... Sounds like you got a little lucky here, but you're right to wonder if you misplayed it. Thank the poker gods for being generous, but learn to play it better next time...

LOwrestling2001 · #7 12-07-2006, 02:52 PM

So, I shouldve raised more preflop (8xbb with 2 limpers?), and pushed on the flop?

Esmerelda · #8 12-07-2006, 03:37 PM

Raise more preflop for value, you have the best hand and you want to get more money in the pot. Also you give information by raising, i.e. a very strong starting hand. You need to charge more for giving out that info and if he calls that will narrow his hand range down.

Raise to 2.50 or a bit more pf

If you had raised a bit more pf then given the stack sizes you should be rrai on the flop here. He will be calling you down with AK, KQ and Kx. You don't want him to get a cheap turn card because he is likely to have a gutshot and pair combo (T9, JT etc).

As played your flop raise is about the right size but leaves you and villain pretty much committed to the rest. You can argue over the small EV advantages of pushing vs. PSB here but it matters little IMO.

Leviathan101 · #9 12-07-2006, 03:43 PM

make a bigger raise preflop. 3 is probably about right. It really hurts set odds and drawing hands, but not enoguh that bad players will fold them. They might think you're stealing and raise back. Also since you are currently a 70%+ favorite over any hand you want maximize your EV now. Raise it up. If they fold, sure. If they constantly fold to 3 bets, 3 bet more.

I would consider just putting him AI on that flop. You're ahead of a lot of hands that call you. As played, call turn and hope to see AK.