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#2
09-23-2007, 06:15 PM
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Re: Where the !*$# is Valuetown??
Thanks for taking the time to write this. Excellent read.
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#5
09-23-2007, 11:45 PM
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Re: Where the !*$# is Valuetown??
A few responses.
corsakh asked: [ QUOTE ] In the third example. How often are you going to call a preflop raiser with a middle pair in a multiway Ace high flop with a 9? How often are you going to check it through on the turn on a fairly drawy board? [/ QUOTE ] My push doesn't rep a middle pair; it reps a set that filled up, or possibly a strong ace that just got safer with respect to a flush draw. I don't need him to believe me much for this to be +EV. Also, if I can put monsters under his bed, let him believe whatever the heck he wants, as long as he folds. ---------- Upgrade U said: [ QUOTE ] some weird HHs [/ QUOTE ] Agreed. I was quite surprised when I looked through my biggest winners and losers to find how many "non-standard" looking hands were in there. Dan Harrington said that you make the most money when you play in a way that's different from your usual style, and he's right. Of course, it's the unusual nature of the play that makes it so effective, because your opponents never see it coming. Also, most of my really big pots (wins and losses) had either incredibly obvious plays, incredibly bad plays [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] , or plays where most/all the money went in preflop and on the flop. Finding hands where the most important decisions happened on the turn and river was a bit on the harder side, but these were some of the highlights from my $100NL play. ---------- Micro Donk asked: [ QUOTE ] is open limping 22 good play for SSNL? [/ QUOTE ] As a general rule? No. When table conditions require it? Absolutely. In the hand I posted, many of the players remaining to act were highly aggressive, three-betting frequently. Given the relatively small stack sizes, my hand couldn't stand up to a three-bet and still have sufficient implied odds to hunt for a set: I'd be forced to fold my pocket pair preflop AFTER paying 4xBB. I don't like doing that. However, if I limp and an opponent makes a raise behind me, the table was loose enough that I'd often get padding in the hand from other players AND I'd still have decent implied odds to call and hunt for a set. Notice that in this hand I DID have to pay a raise preflop, and despite that I made about 35-to-1 on my preflop wager, which is VERY safely +EV for a set hunter. When table conditions warrant it, limping from EP is perfectly acceptable. In this case, it was the combination of short-stacked opponents, aggressive LP players, and bad post-flop players that made limping seem correct. Under more normal circumstances, I'd be open-raising this hand from any position. ---------- Xanta said: [ QUOTE ] Don't like your betsize on the AA hand with the 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] flop. Especially against a drooler villain you can get him to call a pot sized bet with whatever he's calling a 2/3 pot bet with. [/ QUOTE ] For some players, your suggestion would be 100% accurate. However, I usually size my continuation bets at about 2/3rds- to 3/4ths-pot. I find this gives me similar folding equity to a pot-sized bet while offering me much better odds on my wager. Since my c-bet rate is extremely high, I made this decision consciously as an attempt to maximize value in the long run. Of course, betting 2/3rds- to 3/4ths-pot when you've got air REQUIRES you to bet the same size when you've got the goods. In this case I've got an overpair and a backdoor nut flush draw, but I can't go mixing up my bet size based on my hand strength. Sure, it's possible that villain has a flush draw and will pay off a bigger bet, but it's more likely that he has a one-pair hand and doesn't want to pay much to see another card. It's even more likely that he's got air and is looking for an excuse to fold, whereas a small bet might get him to "look me up" with overcards, hoping to catch lucky. I can't go betting strong with strong hands and weak with weak ones -- it's suicide if anybody at the table ever pays attention. Consider this bet size a stylistic decision rather than a card-based decision: it's all about the metagame. One last point: AA is not the nuts, and I don't necessarily want to build a huge pot with it. I especially don't want to trap myself into this pot and get stacked by some unlikely crap like 98o or 76s. Betting small gives me more options on the turn and river, and keeps me from building a gigantic pot where I can't possibly be ahead. ---------- Finally, a message for orange: contact the Absolute Poker customer service, because it looks like your software is out of date. The newer version has a "check" button.
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#6
09-24-2007, 12:03 AM
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Re: Where the !*$# is Valuetown??
ok so I went through and quickly picked out some hands that may help illustrate the points Pokey was trying to make. I think betting on the turn/river is the biggest weakness of most unl players. Here's some hands that I came up with:
<font color="blue">When should I bet the turn?</font> 1. When your hand is strong enough. Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter) SB: $146.73 BB: $40.82 UTG: $96.29 Hero (MP): $144.53 CO: $17.32 BTN: $111.27 Preflop: Hero is dealt 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 Players) UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $4.00</font>, CO folds, BTN calls $4.00, 2 folds Flop: ($9.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players) <font color="red">Hero bets $8.00</font>, BTN calls $8.00 Turn: ($25.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players) <font color="red">Hero bets $13.00</font>, BTN calls $13.00 River: ($51.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players) Hero checks, BTN checks Pot Size: $51.50 ($2.57 Rake) BTN had 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a pair of Eights) and LOST (-$25.00) Hero had 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a pair of Nines) and WON (+$23.93) 2. When your opponent is likely enough to fold. Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 4 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter) SB: $111.10 Hero (BB): $101.91 UTG: $302.08 BTN: $96.45 Preflop: Hero is dealt 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 Players) 2 folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $3.50</font>, Hero calls $2.50 Flop: ($7) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players) <font color="red">SB bets $4.50</font>, Hero calls $4.50 Turn: ($16) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players) SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $10.00</font>, SB folds Pot Size: $26.00 3. When neither #1 nor #2 applies, but TOGETHER they make betting +EV. Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter) SB: $189.22 Hero (BB): $100.00 UTG: $155.58 CO: $114.14 BTN: $75.48 Preflop: Hero is dealt 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 Players) <font color="red">UTG raises to $4.00</font>, CO folds, BTN calls $4.00, SB calls $3.50, Hero calls $3.00 Flop: ($16) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 Players) SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $12.00</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls $12.00 Turn: ($40) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players) Hero checks, <font color="red">UTG bets $24.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises all-in to $84.00</font>, UTG folds Pot Size: $148.00 4. When your hand needs protection. Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter) SB: $34.00 BB: $94.09 UTG: $158.12 CO: $135.59 Hero (BTN): $164.31 Preflop: Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 Players) 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $4.00</font>, SB folds, BB calls $3.00 Flop: ($8.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players) <font color="red">BB bets $3.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $12.00</font>, BB calls $9.00 Turn: ($32.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players) <font color="red">BB bets $10.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $35.00</font>, BB folds Pot Size: $77.50 5. When you are in position and want the option of a free showdown. Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter) SB: $101.98 BB: $99.00 UTG: $123.70 CO: $110.68 Hero (BTN): $97.69 Preflop: Hero is dealt T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 Players) 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $4.00</font>, SB folds, BB calls $3.00 Flop: ($8.50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players) BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $7.00</font>, BB calls $7.00 Turn: ($22.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players) BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $20.00</font>, BB calls $20.00 River: ($62.50) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players) BB checks, Hero checks Pot Size: $62.50 ($2 Rake) BB had 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a pair of Sevens) and LOST (-$31.00) Hero had T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a pair of Tens) and WON (+$29.50) 6. To better disguise your hand. Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter) Hero (SB): $84.82 BB: $69.47 UTG: $49.50 MP: $118.10 CO: $82.26 BTN: $56.15 Preflop: Hero is dealt 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 Players) 2 folds, CO calls $0.50, BTN folds, Hero calls $0.25, BB checks Flop: ($1.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players) <font color="red">Hero bets $1.25</font>, BB folds, CO calls $1.25 Turn: ($4) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players) <font color="red">Hero bets $2.25</font>, CO calls $2.25 River: ($8.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players) <font color="red">Hero bets $6.00</font>, CO folds Pot Size: $14.50 <font color="blue">When should I bet the river?</font> 1. Getting your opponent to fold when he has the best hand. Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter) SB: $99.00 BB: $113.80 UTG: $30.65 Hero (CO): $146.55 BTN: $96.00 Preflop: Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 Players) UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $4.00</font>, BTN calls $4.00, 2 folds Flop: ($9.50) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players) <font color="red">Hero bets $7.00</font>, BTN calls $7.00 Turn: ($23.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players) <font color="red">Hero bets $18.00</font>, BTN calls $18.00 River: ($59.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players) <font color="red">Hero bets all-in for $117.55</font>, BTN folds Pot Size: $177.05 2. Getting your opponent to call when he has the worst hand. Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter) SB: $143.66 BB: $97.00 UTG: $161.16 MP: $52.40 Hero (CO): $203.21 BTN: $176.02 Preflop: Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 Players) 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $4.00</font>, BTN folds, SB calls $3.50, BB folds Flop: ($9) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players) SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $7.00</font>, SB calls $7.00 Turn: ($23) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players) SB checks, Hero checks River: ($23) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players) SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $15.00</font>, SB calls $15.00 Pot Size: $53.00 ($2.65 Rake) SB had 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a pair of Eights) and LOST (-$26.00) Hero had A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (a pair of Jacks) and WON (+$24.35) 3. "Value bluffing." Party Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter) Hero (SB): $183.38 BB: $133.15 UTG: $116.06 MP: $141.96 CO: $77.08 BTN: $44.00 Preflop: Hero is dealt 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 Players) UTG calls $1.00, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.50, BB checks Flop: ($3) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players) <font color="red">Hero bets $2.00</font>, UTG calls $2.00, BB folds Turn: ($7) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players) Hero checks, UTG checks River: ($7) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players) <font color="red">Hero bets $4.00</font>, UTG calls $4.00 Pot Size: $15.00 ($0.75 Rake) UTG had 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (a pair of Sixes) and LOST (-$7.00) Hero had 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a pair of Eights) and WON (+$7.25) Edit--- Alot of them are pretty basic. I think knowing your opponents tendencies are really important in making plays on the turn/river...but when you have a good grasp as to whether your opponent will fold a better hand/call a worst hand, you can really squeeze alot of extra value on later streets.
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#7
09-24-2007, 12:31 AM
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Re: Where the !*$# is Valuetown??
New Pokey material, are you kidding me?!! I haven't even finished rerererereading all the Pokey posts in the anthology.
Pokey, welcome back...this is great, it's like an early christmas (no disrespect intended to the other uNL veterans). I can already tell this one's going to take a while to digest. Thanks also to Traz for taking the time going though your HH's, those are great examples. BTW, why did you call the raise in the BB in hand 3 under "When should I bet the turn?" Table conditions I guess?
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#9
09-24-2007, 02:57 AM
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Re: Where the !*$# is Valuetown??
In thr OP, the first "protecting your hand" hand where Hero has AA. Don't the draws get the right odds to call after your flush or did I do the quick math wrong?
Around 200 in the pot, around 50 to call is about right (Especially if you figure in the chance that the other guy might call due to the even better odds after the first caller)
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