free showdown play gone bad

numbnuts007 · #1 09-06-2007, 05:40 AM

I've been a full ring player since i started playing about 2 years ago but I'm trying to figure this 6 max thing out and it's not going so well. I think I've figured out that i'm a showdown monkey. With that in mind i'm going to try to post a few hands in the coming days with questionable calldowns. Here is the first one. Advice is welcome on all streets.

BB is 42/22/1.4 over 300 hands

Full Tilt 1/2 Hold'em (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. BB posts a blind of $1.
Hero raises, 2 folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img](3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (11.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.75 BB

milesdyson · #2 09-06-2007, 06:54 AM

really you should just call down and bet when checked to. if you don't do this then you should raise the flop when you're playing against his entire range and you have a gutshot and a pair when your equity is fairly high if behind.

HoneyBadger · #3 09-06-2007, 07:22 AM

I don't open this UTG nowadays, but it's probably close.

I'd just call/call/call against this guy. I absolutely don't see why you would raise the turn. As played just fold the river. I don't see what you can still beat. Even in the unlikely event he was semi-bluff 3-betting, he hit the flush.

milesdyson · #4 09-06-2007, 07:24 AM

it's a hijack open raise. have you always been in amsterdam?

Oink · #5 09-06-2007, 07:53 AM

Fold the river.

Dont raise the turn

Possibly raise the flo depending on how SD bound he is and how wide his range is. Usually I just call it tho.

In general you dont want to a raise marginal hand on the urn when you cant fold to a 3-bet. Also Miles' point is pretty important. His 2nd barreling range is prolly much narrower and stronger than his 1'st barrel range. You should often consider this when trying to asses on waht street you want to put in your raise.

Gurravasa · #6 09-06-2007, 09:37 AM

just call down and hope he fires all streets with AK or PP. As played you beat nothing on river.

HoneyBadger · #7 09-06-2007, 09:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
it's a hijack open raise. have you always been in amsterdam?

[/ QUOTE ]
Oh it's 4 handend, I didn't see that. Ignore preflop comment then. Other comments are still valid.

Yes, I was born in Amsterdam and still live there.

numbnuts007 · #8 09-06-2007, 02:56 PM

Help me understand why a free showdown play is bad here. It seemed like a good spot to me: marginal hand where i may be ahead with outs to improve. You guys seem to disagree. Is it because i'm against an aggressive opponent? I might be giving too much value to free showdown plays in general. thanks for the help.

Oink · #9 09-06-2007, 03:09 PM

Dont free SD raise if you cant fold to a 3-bet. So dont do it if you have outs. Check out Stox book. There is a good discussion of when to FSD raise. A summary:

- Dont FSD raise if you cant fold to a 3-bet

- Dont FSD raise if you cant fold a better hand

- Dont FSD raise if villain is likely to continue his bluff on the river.

sweetjazz · #10 09-06-2007, 03:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Help me understand why a free showdown play is bad here. It seemed like a good spot to me: marginal hand where i may be ahead with outs to improve. You guys seem to disagree. Is it because i'm against an aggressive opponent? I might be giving too much value to free showdown plays in general. thanks for the help.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you just managed to pwn yourself out of 2 BB and that's going to happen a lot given your opponent's range and the board texture. And what exactly are you hoping to accomplish with your free showdown raise? What hand(s) in villain's range fare worse against a free showdown raise versus a calldown (betting if checked to)? Now think about which hands fare much better.

BTW, your line in this hand is very nice when you have KT.