For the WWII buffs

[tame_deuces]

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3.) There is actually international law on how wars should be fought, that's mostly where I got my opinion - noting how these conventions have changed.

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To be fair there are a lot of technological issues that forced these changes as well. Prior to WW1 there wasn't a need to address bombing of cities with civilians as the capability wasn't there in such force. Even with the monstrous artillery like the Paris gun the weapons still had to be relatively close, couldn't be moved to different targets as quickly and couldn't be deployed from distance en masse. The idea that an entire city could be destroyed in a day, let alone an entire city well behind enemy lines, was totally new and the ramifications of that cannot be understated. I don't think its fair to attribute those changes fully to a change in how people viewed war without considering that war actually had to change dramatically first before those views were even to be considered.

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Agreed.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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There have been at least two or three discussions of this topic on this very forum within that last 3 years. Some of the threads were very good with excellent discussion and some degenerated. Anyway, a seach of the archives could be of help. And Andy Fox (and others) contributed some very good posts, as he did in this thread.

-Zeno

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Searching the older archives makes whats little left of my working brain hurt but I just happened to have a link to Andy Fox and iron81's debate from a while back.

~ Rick

[Moseley]

I have also heard that Japan was posturing to surrender prior to the bombs. Problem is: The winners write history, so it's buried somewhere.

If you ever do find the root reason for the dropping of the bombs, maybe you can find the reason we invaded the Phillipines in 1900 and slaughtered 250k men, women and children.... with the most advanced killing machine being the gattling gun. Germany and Japan only killed 450k American soldiers with all their mechanized machinery.

[andyfox]

"What the hell kind of nightmare must it have been the night 100,000 Tokyo citizens were burned to death?"

Many, trying to escape the extreme heat, ran to the river. They were burnt to death in the river, which was boiling.

[Zeno]

All nations commit atrocities during war, against their enemies and some against their own people (see Stalin).

A forgotten element about the Philippines during WWII:


Japan Finally Issues Apology

Manila Massacre

And in Singapore: Sook Ching Massacre

-Zeno

[riptas_96]

All I ever hear about this topic is how the US had to drop the Atomic Bombs in order to end the war, and blah blah. Many, and I mean MANY histories and military officials have stated openly that there is vast amounts of evidence that the Japan were willing to surrender prior to the bombings. I've studied alot of stuff stating that they were openly trying to work out a surrender with us for many months.

The dropping of the bombs was for the simple reason that we were scared of what Russia stood for (We felt that way long before WWII started, or before the Soviets were invaded). Stalins views and ways of running that country were insane, and the things they were doing in Europe in the countries they re-occupied from Germany, such as the executions of 4,000 polish officers, worried our government alot. They saw the cold war coming, and felt they need to scare Russia a bit (if not the rest of the world also, idk).

Anyone who has studied WWII alot, or understands the way the Japanese people were in those times, could very easily realize the dropping of those bombs did very little (if anything at all) to stop the war. The Japanese soldiers willingly died to defend their Emperor, because surrender was not an option. I think the thousands of cases of a Japanese soldier out of ammo charging 100 American soldiers with a sword instead of surrendering explains that. The death of a couple hundred thousand of their people wouldn't instantly change that. They surrendered "immediately" because they had been wanting to surrender all along.

I'm sure for ever military historian who says that this is true, their is 1 who says it isn't, so your thoughts?

And, without going to off-topic, or if anyone wanted to comment, what is your opinion on America always trying to tell other countries not to create nuclear weapons, and waging war over it, and currently trying to do that with Iran right now, even though we (I'm American) are the only people to have EVER dropped nuclear (atomic) weapons. And the fact that we didn't even drop them on a military target, just civilians living their lives 1,000 miles from the battlefront.


-Adam

[tame_deuces]

Interestingly I've read detailed and reputed works by Japanese historians which refute your point about absolute willingness to surrender (Picture the army minister retiring, making the cabinet decision moot and the army surrounding the emperor's palace on his orders to 'protect' the emperor from the now illegitimate cabinet - and you see a tiny little bit of the the complexity of the issue).

As for dropping it on civilians - mass bombing of civilians was a completely a legitimate tactic in WW2. That is the cold cruel truth.

[Nonfiction]

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Anyone who has studied WWII alot, or understands the way the Japanese people were in those times, could very easily realize the dropping of those bombs did very little (if anything at all) to stop the war. The Japanese soldiers willingly died to defend their Emperor, because surrender was not an option. I think the thousands of cases of a Japanese soldier out of ammo charging 100 American soldiers with a sword instead of surrendering explains that. The death of a couple hundred thousand of their people wouldn't instantly change that. They surrendered "immediately" because they had been wanting to surrender all along.

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This makes no sense. They wanted surrender all along, but at the same time were suiciding themselves in order to not surrender? The only reason that surrender even happened is that the Japanese Army was convinced to not overthrow the emperor and install a military government and continue the war. The bomb contributed to the feeling of helplessness, along with the invasion of Manchuria by Russia. And yes, fear of the Russians was one of the main reasons the bomb was dropped. Like I posted earlier, American wanted to the win the war asap before Russia could capture more in East Asia. They also wished to save millions of lives which would be lost in an invasion. Finally, the bomb HAD to be dropped due to the enormous amount of money pumped into the Manhattan program, as well as American feelings of revenge and hatred towards the Japanese.

[riptas_96]

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Anyone who has studied WWII alot, or understands the way the Japanese people were in those times, could very easily realize the dropping of those bombs did very little (if anything at all) to stop the war. The Japanese soldiers willingly died to defend their Emperor, because surrender was not an option. I think the thousands of cases of a Japanese soldier out of ammo charging 100 American soldiers with a sword instead of surrendering explains that. The death of a couple hundred thousand of their people wouldn't instantly change that. They surrendered "immediately" because they had been wanting to surrender all along.

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This makes no sense. They wanted surrender all along, but at the same time were suiciding themselves in order to not surrender? The only reason that surrender even happened is that the Japanese Army was convinced to not overthrow the emperor and install a military government and continue the war. The bomb contributed to the feeling of helplessness, along with the invasion of Manchuria by Russia. And yes, fear of the Russians was one of the main reasons the bomb was dropped. Like I posted earlier, American wanted to the win the war asap before Russia could capture more in East Asia. They also wished to save millions of lives which would be lost in an invasion. Finally, the bomb HAD to be dropped due to the enormous amount of money pumped into the Manhattan program, as well as American feelings of revenge and hatred towards the Japanese.

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I know that was a bit confusing, I just meant Japanese soldiers, and the army in general, looked at surrender as cowardly, and they never did it. They killed themselves before doing it, and killed many of our soldiers for surrendering, because they viewed them as less than human for surrendering. But the soldiers did as they are told no matter what the order was, even if it was something so cowardly (in their eyes) as surrendering.

The predictions that we would lose a million American soldiers if we invaded, was simply because the Japanese don't surrender. They fight and die, which is why the Japanese people, to my knowledge, in mass numbers were arming themselves with anything from pitchforks to homemade spears to fight our invasion. Thats why I feel the surrender was so weird and hard to understand in the first place (which makes my "argument" confusing because I feel it's a very complex confusing topic).

When it comes to the Japanese side of WWII you seem to know more than I do, and I appreciate your response. '_'


-Adam

[Nonfiction]

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The predictions that we would lose a million American soldiers if we invaded, was simply because the Japanese don't surrender. They fight and die, which is why the Japanese people, to my knowledge, in mass numbers were arming themselves with anything from pitchforks to homemade spears to fight our invasion. Thats why I feel the surrender was so weird and hard to understand in the first place (which makes my "argument" confusing because I feel it's a very complex confusing topic).

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The estimates were also based on the high costs of taking Japanese prewar possessions such as Iwo Jima and Okinawa and seeing the enormous casualties, both American and Japanese that resulted. If an invasion of Japan actually had occured, it likely would have taken years to "win," by which time the Soviets would have likely taken all of Manchuria and Korea, and be in position to launch their own invasion of Japan, which would result in a Japan divided like Germany and Korea.