OESD + back door flush vs LW player/all-in?

f1shermanjim · #1 08-15-2006, 11:11 AM

I want to know what would you do here? And why? What do you put the villian on?

My read on the villian after only a few short hands is he is playing a lot of pots and is giving away his chips. Loose pre-flop and chasing post flop. I haven't seen much post flop aggression from him so far.

Villian2 I only have a few hands on, but he has shown down only good cards. Plays aggressive pre-flop and aggressive on the flop if he hits even if it is only a draw. He can fold if he is re-raised on a scary board and will fold on the river if bet into even if it is a 1/4 pot bet. I think he likes to play big pairs, but can lay them down when he thinks he is behind.

Villian3 is aggressive preflop and will bet out on tp. Then continue to block bet the turn and the river.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO :#A500AF(Villian)/ ($5.64)
Button :#A500AF(villian2)/ ($9.38)
SB ($4.68)
BB ($15.39)
UTG ($10.26)
UTG+1 ($7.25)
MP1 ($2.98)
MP2 ($10.05)
Hero ($12.61)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.05, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.05, CO :#A500AF(Villian)/ calls $0.05, Button :#A500AF(villian2)/ raises to $0.25, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.20, Hero calls $0.20, CO :#A500AF(Villian)/ calls $0.20.

Flop: ($1.07) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.3, Villian raises to $0.6, villian2 raises to $1.75, UTG folds, Hero calls $2.05, Villian raises to $5.39(all-in), villian2 folds,

los_toros · #2 08-15-2006, 11:13 AM

Your equity is terrible against all conceivable hands that Villian is pushing, fold.

prayformojo · #3 08-15-2006, 11:26 AM

I assume this is full ring, which I don't play often, but here goes:

Fold 65s pre-flop in MP after one limper. Why? Because there are four players to act behind who could raise, and you'll end up playing a mediocre speculative hand in a big pot out of position.

Fold pre-flop after the button raise. Why? Because now you KNOW you'll be playing a mediocre speculative in a big pot out of position.

Check the flop. Why? Because you don't have much of a hand, you're not folding out anyone with your weak semi-bluff, you're very likely facing a raise behind, and your draw may not be as good as you think.

Fold to the flop 3-bet. Why? Because you're behind right now, have only 6 clean outs, don't have odds to draw to them, and don't have the equity or fold equity to push.

Fold to the flop push. Why? Because you still don't have odds to call, may face another push behind you, and you still don't have the equity or fold equity to push.

f1shermanjim · #4 08-15-2006, 11:28 AM

I want to know why you say the equity is terrible.

I figure I am getting 3.07:1 odds to call the extra raise. I am giving myself 7 outs (4-7s, 4-3s and 1 for backdoor flush). I know 7c and 3c makes a flush, but I'm thinking he has a made hand here like 2pr or trips.

With 7 outs I have 2.6:1 odds.

I am having a tough time is spots like this and feel that I am making too may laydowns and appearing to be weak.

Any other thoughts or suggestions would really be appreciated.

los_toros · #5 08-15-2006, 11:30 AM

I suppose you can make a case that it's close, but I don't usually take these...

prayformojo · #6 08-15-2006, 11:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I figure I am getting 3.07:1 odds to call the extra raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is results oriented thinking, ignoring the fact that Villain2 is still to act behind.

Your equity is also not as strong as you think. It's not simply a matter of 7c and 3c not being clean outs. You need to account for the times you hit your straight and still lose, because ANY flush card hits. I don't have Pokerstove here, but I'd love to see this run through a reasonable range of Villains' hands. If either Villain 1 or Villain 2 is on a flush draw, especially with overcards to the board, you are a significant dog.

f1shermanjim · #7 08-15-2006, 11:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold 65s pre-flop in MP after one limper. Why? Because there are four players to act behind who could raise, and you'll end up playing a mediocre speculative hand in a big pot out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Question for you. Keep in mind I am really trying to learn here. I am playing the $.02/.05 NL FR at Stars with a Max $10 buy-in(200bb). Am I wrong to limp mp after 1 limper with sc with the intent to fold if I get a big raise?

A big raise I would define as $.50 or more.

[ QUOTE ]
Fold pre-flop after the button raise. Why? Because now you KNOW you'll be playing a mediocre speculative in a big pot out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

My read on this guy is he plays aggressive pre-flop with big pocket pairs and suited connectors should give me good implied odds to see the flop. Am I way off on this?

[ QUOTE ]
Check the flop. Why? Because you don't have much of a hand, you're not folding out anyone with your weak semi-bluff, you're very likely facing a raise behind, and your draw may not be as good as you think.

[/ QUOTE ]

The villian has played loose weak and the villian2 has folded to aggression. Am I playing way too loose?

[ QUOTE ]
Fold to the flop 3-bet. Why? Because you're behind right now, have only 6 clean outs, don't have odds to draw to them, and don't have the equity or fold equity to push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again I thought the villian 2 would fold to aggression if I represented trips. I wasn't really worried about the villian at this point.

[ QUOTE ]
Fold to the flop push. Why? Because you still don't have odds to call, may face another push behind you, and you still don't have the equity or fold equity to push.

[/ QUOTE ]

At this point it is just me and the villian and again I feel that the best he has here is trips.

My issue is I don't want to give away a big pot against a loose weak player. I only figure him for trips 20 to 40% of the time here and with 6 real outs +1 for the back door flush I have a tough decision.

Based on your reply though I should have folded long ago.

Don't you want to play suited connectors in a multi-way pot with deep stacks because of the implied odds? Or is this not the spot to do it?

Thanks for your reply.

f1shermanjim · #8 08-15-2006, 12:02 PM

villian 2 has folded after villian one pushed. Again villian is loose/weak and he could have anything. Since I am heads up if I call I give him credit for trips the majority of the time, a flush draw rarely and tp?? occasionally.

Like I said I just don't want to give this pot away, but these are situations where I really struggle. It seems I play a lot of little pots and build a pretty good stack, then I get into a situation like this and either fold or call and lose. Occasionally I will win. I just don't respect the villian and have a hard time giving him credit for playing well.

I also made a big laydown in an earlier pot against a Semi-tight/Semi-aggressive player and I think it would have been a race, but since I folded I feel I just gave it away.

I really do appreciate all the advice and I guess after looking at from a different point of view it was a fold situation. I just hate to give away a big pot here.

Any other advice would on these situations would be greatly appreciated.

labrat · #9 08-15-2006, 12:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My issue is I don't want to give away a big pot against a loose weak player

[/ QUOTE ]
But you dont want to hand your stack to him either.
When villain 2 re-raises you have a clear fold unless you think they will fold to your push (and I think this almost never happens) calling is by far the worst option imo.

On the flop, you have put in your whole stack with 6 high and no FE.

Prayformojo's first post was spot on, except that I think you should call now that you've seen villain1 has folded.

prayformojo · #10 08-15-2006, 12:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold 65s pre-flop in MP after one limper. Why? Because there are four players to act behind who could raise, and you'll end up playing a mediocre speculative hand in a big pot out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Question for you. Keep in mind I am really trying to learn here. I am playing the $.02/.05 NL FR at Stars with a Max $10 buy-in(200bb). Am I wrong to limp mp after 1 limper with sc with the intent to fold if I get a big raise?

A big raise I would define as $.50 or more.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mind playing suited connectors in a multi-way pot in position, especially in position against multiple limpers. However, I'm not looking to play them out of position against pre-flop raisers. I hate being caught in exactly the spot you found yourself, sandwiched between two aggressors. I don't mind playing a small pair for set value in this spot, because I can hit the flop hard and get huge value. SCs are at best going to give me a mediocre draw, making for a very difficult and expensive flop.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold pre-flop after the button raise. Why? Because now you KNOW you'll be playing a mediocre speculative in a big pot out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

My read on this guy is he plays aggressive pre-flop with big pocket pairs and suited connectors should give me good implied odds to see the flop. Am I way off on this?

[/ QUOTE ]

See above. I think you're undervaluing position.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check the flop. Why? Because you don't have much of a hand, you're not folding out anyone with your weak semi-bluff, you're very likely facing a raise behind, and your draw may not be as good as you think.

[/ QUOTE ]

The villian has played loose weak and the villian2 has folded to aggression. Am I playing way too loose?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just don't see the point of this weak flop bet. If you want to be aggressive, bet a proper amount. If you actually had a set, would you bet $.30 into a $1.00 pot into multiple opponents giving better than perfect express odds to draw to a flush? That said, I don't like any flop bet here because your hand is simply too weak and I expect a raise behind a lot of the time. You put Villain 2 on a big pair. Is he so weak that he won't raise a very weak flop bet on this board?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold to the flop 3-bet. Why? Because you're behind right now, have only 6 clean outs, don't have odds to draw to them, and don't have the equity or fold equity to push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again I thought the villian 2 would fold to aggression if I represented trips. I wasn't really worried about the villian at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

How did you represent trips by calling the three-bet? You say he would fold to aggression, but you showed none.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold to the flop push. Why? Because you still don't have odds to call, may face another push behind you, and you still don't have the equity or fold equity to push.

[/ QUOTE ]

At this point it is just me and the villian and again I feel that the best he has here is trips.

My issue is I don't want to give away a big pot against a loose weak player. I only figure him for trips 20 to 40% of the time here and with 6 real outs +1 for the back door flush I have a tough decision.

Based on your reply though I should have folded long ago.

Don't you want to play suited connectors in a multi-way pot with deep stacks because of the implied odds? Or is this not the spot to do it?

Thanks for your reply.

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
Fold to the flop 3-bet. Why? Because you're behind right now, have only 6 clean outs, don't have odds to draw to them, and don't have the equity or fold equity to push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again I thought the villian 2 would fold to aggression if I represented trips. I wasn't really worried about the villian at this point.

[ QUOTE ]
Fold to the flop push. Why? Because you still don't have odds to call, may face another push behind you, and you still don't have the equity or fold equity to push.

[/ QUOTE ]

At this point it is just me and the villian and again I feel that the best he has here is trips.

My issue is I don't want to give away a big pot against a loose weak player. I only figure him for trips 20% to 40% of the time here and with 6 real outs +1 for the back door flush I have a tough decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you put him on the other 60% to 80% of the time? You say he's passive postflop, so how often is he doing this with a pair or a ragged two pair? What's your range for Villain, and how do your odds compare against that range? How confident are you discarding the possibility of a flush draw? This is a situation that needs more than than a calculation of outs and odds. You need to compare your own equity against the equity of Villain's range of hands. The possibility that you hit your hand and still lose is a live one, and must be accounted for in situations, as in this hand, where the expected value of raising is pretty thin even in a best case scenario.