A tricky stud play

[*TT*]

I was out at lunch thinking about a theoretical play that I haven’t tried yet (mostly because I don’t play stud that often, I hope to start when I relocate to LV).

Say the villain completes on 3rd street with a hand such as(xx)A, and the hero comes along for (TJ)9 single suited. 4th street is seemingly blank for the villain who bets, hero calls with (TJ)98. 5th street is another villain blank but he checks because the hero now has a 3-straight – (TJ)987. In this scenario I would contemplate a hero check if I know the villain is aggressive enough to bet on 6th street in hopes that he will improve his hand, and I can pop him for a raise if the opponent will tend to check/fold top pair to a 3-straight board.

Now let’s take the same scenario, except my board is now (TJ)98T. We still assume the villain has a big pair, probably Aces. The villain checks 5th street, in what scenarios should the hero bet his second best hand, and in what scenarios should he check 5th and consider a 6th street bluff if he doesn’t improve?

TT
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[iamastud]

It is my belief that if you had (TJ)98T and the villain checked his ace high, you should almost always bet becasue if he does not have the aces, you will likely take down the pot there and if he does have the aces he might still fold, but surely chefck to you unimproved on 6th and you can take the free card if you wish. So betting seems almost always right in this situation.

now, if he had bet 5th, raising him almost always seems correct as he might fold or at least check to you on 6th. i am not sure of the esact percentages on 5th as to who is favorite, but it has to be pretty close with your 1 pair and open strt draw.

in either case, you are in good shape in this hand and have best position. in either case, you want to be aggresive with your 1 pair and strt draw.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]
It is my belief that if you had (TJ)98T and the villain checked his ace high, you should almost always bet becasue if he does not have the aces, you will likely take down the pot there and if he does have the aces he might still fold, but surely chefck to you unimproved on 6th and you can take the free card if you wish. So betting seems almost always right in this situation.

now, if he had bet 5th, raising him almost always seems correct as he might fold or at least check to you on 6th. i am not sure of the esact percentages on 5th as to who is favorite, but it has to be pretty close with your 1 pair and open strt draw.

in either case, you are in good shape in this hand and have best position. in either case, you want to be aggresive with your 1 pair and strt draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

In this theoretical, had you already limped in with your straight draw? If it is 2 cold, we might not have to have the discussion as you will often want to consider a fold.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is my belief that if you had (TJ)98T and the villain checked his ace high, you should almost always bet becasue if he does not have the aces, you will likely take down the pot there and if he does have the aces he might still fold, but surely chefck to you unimproved on 6th and you can take the free card if you wish. So betting seems almost always right in this situation.

now, if he had bet 5th, raising him almost always seems correct as he might fold or at least check to you on 6th. i am not sure of the esact percentages on 5th as to who is favorite, but it has to be pretty close with your 1 pair and open strt draw.

in either case, you are in good shape in this hand and have best position. in either case, you want to be aggresive with your 1 pair and strt draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

In this theoretical, had you already limped in with your straight draw? If it is 2 cold, we might not have to have the discussion as you will often want to consider a fold.

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Cold call, the hand is assumed to be heads up and the outs are clean.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[electrical]

[ QUOTE ]
...Now let’s take the same scenario, except my board is now (TJ)98T. We still assume the villain has a big pair, probably Aces. The villain checks 5th street, in what scenarios should the hero bet his second best hand, and in what scenarios should he check 5th and consider a 6th street bluff if he doesn’t improve?

[/ QUOTE ]
If villain has a dry pair here, and there is any money in the pot, your hand isn't really "second best." You have a value bet with an open-ender and a live pair -- something like 51 percent of the pot if villain doesn't also have a good draw himself.

You would certainly call a bet here or raise as a free-card play. With live cards, I can't find a reason not to bet. If your Tens and straight cards are compromised, then maybe take the free card if you know with certainty he won't fold a pair.

If, on the next card, you do make an open pair or complete your straight, villain may not call a bet unimproved, so the only way to get value is to bet it on Fifth.

What's the thinking behind delaying the bet until Sixth?

[PoorLawyer]

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[ QUOTE ]
It is my belief that if you had (TJ)98T and the villain checked his ace high, you should almost always bet becasue if he does not have the aces, you will likely take down the pot there and if he does have the aces he might still fold, but surely chefck to you unimproved on 6th and you can take the free card if you wish. So betting seems almost always right in this situation.

now, if he had bet 5th, raising him almost always seems correct as he might fold or at least check to you on 6th. i am not sure of the esact percentages on 5th as to who is favorite, but it has to be pretty close with your 1 pair and open strt draw.

in either case, you are in good shape in this hand and have best position. in either case, you want to be aggresive with your 1 pair and strt draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

In this theoretical, had you already limped in with your straight draw? If it is 2 cold, we might not have to have the discussion as you will often want to consider a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cold call, the hand is assumed to be heads up and the outs are clean.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, NOW its assumed to be heads up.

I can see checking the made straight to be tricky when playing heads up. I see people do this a lot with flushes on 5th. Check and then when there is a blank, the other guy fires to charge them to draw and oops they get popped with the made hand. Only problem is if you catch another scare card then you might have missed a bet.

[FishySayBANG!]

The first scenerio is very specfic. Your play would be correct for the reasons you stated but in general I dont think you are going to find very agro stud players who also fold a pair of Aces on 5th to a 987 board. But if you found that player then I totally agree with your idea.

In the second scenerio you probably have the best hand dude! Err, you have the best equity against your opponent. I would almost always bet 5th street and then re-evaluate on 6th street. If I didnt improve in anyway on 6th I would probably check if I didnt think my opponent would fold.

[dsaxton]

I don't really understand the post. In the first hand, I see no reason to slow-play strong hands on big bet streets. Bet and hope he has a hand.

In the second, you have the best hand, even if he has a higher pair. I would raise if he bet, and (obviously) bet if he checked.