Whats your river line? 60-120 live

[mike l.]

"why not just limp, mike, w/ hands that play well multiway?"

there is merit to seeing the flop 4 handed (sb always comes when it's one chip more to him) i admit but i like raising a bit more. some reasons:

--it balances your raises with premium starters. players cant assume a 743 flop or whatever missed you and play back.
--really bad players just need to be isolated constantly. they play their winning hands bad and their losing hands even worse and having position on them is so meaningful. just because you raise w/ 86 doesnt mean you pound away relentlessly no matter what. sometimes you give up after they call your flop bet, sometimes if the blinds come along you give up on the flop. sometimes you get tricky and represent a card that falls on the turn and get someone to laydown a winner. all these things can happen sometimes if you take the initiative preflop and raise it up. when you isolate a bad player you set up a scenario where you are playing the house in a heads up game with them where they have the worst of it. how can they have the worst of it if they have QT and you have 86? all the times they miss and draw and you charge them correctly (with or without a pair) and they muck on the end should overcome the times you end up spewing and giving them chips. position+expert play=oop fish loses all his chips. it's one of the finest things that can happen in live play. the fish are just sooo loose and passive and they never play back, they walk in the door expecting to dump off all their money. and they do.

[siegfriedandroy]

[ QUOTE ]
"why not just limp, mike, w/ hands that play well multiway?"

there is merit to seeing the flop 4 handed (sb always comes when it's one chip more to him) i admit but i like raising a bit more. some reasons:

--it balances your raises with premium starters. players cant assume a 743 flop or whatever missed you and play back.
--really bad players just need to be isolated constantly. they play their winning hands bad and their losing hands even worse and having position on them is so meaningful. just because you raise w/ 86 doesnt mean you pound away relentlessly no matter what. sometimes you give up after they call your flop bet, sometimes if the blinds come along you give up on the flop. sometimes you get tricky and represent a card that falls on the turn and get someone to laydown a winner. all these things can happen sometimes if you take the initiative preflop and raise it up. when you isolate a bad player you set up a scenario where you are playing the house in a heads up game with them where they have the worst of it. how can they have the worst of it if they have QT and you have 86? all the times they miss and draw and you charge them correctly (with or without a pair) and they muck on the end should overcome the times you end up spewing and giving them chips. position+expert play=oop fish loses all his chips. it's one of the finest things that can happen in live play. the fish are just sooo loose and passive and they never play back, they walk in the door expecting to dump off all their money. and they do.


[/ QUOTE ]

hey mike. thanks for the (thorough) response. good explanation. definitely some important things to consider.

[Bill Haverchuck]

This is a low content bump, but I'm reading through all the old threads and wanted to say how great a post this is, Mike. Every time I read this forum it inspires me to go put in work (I normally feel like playing is drudgery). You guys are awesome.

[glen]

I appreciate your handle. Freaks and Geeks was the PWN. That being said Mike's post is more or less definite given the estimated pt stats/live vibe whatever. . . .

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise again. the turn act like he wants to raise is just that: an act. he wants to scare you because he's thinking of showing down his A3 unimproved...

but oops oh wait it improved and he made his straight!
raise again.

oh wow btw all the people saying fold preflop are brain dead. 5 handed against live fishies that gets raised every time. not close. people saying fold either suck at live hold em, play in tough games, or most likely only play online.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent post.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Thanks.

[DavidC]

Just a question, how is the low rake of this game a factor in your decision to raise 86s preflop?

[brandon]

No rake. its a time game

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Just a question, how is the low rake of this game a factor in your decision to raise 86s preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's what I meant.

What % rake (of average pot) would you have to see at a table to make this a fold rather than a raise?

edit: fwiw, nh.

[Ryno]

"oh wow btw all the people saying fold preflop are brain dead. 5 handed against live fishies that gets raised every time. not close. people saying fold either suck at live hold em, play in tough games, or most likely only play online"

I wonder how many people reading this suck at live holdem, play in tough games, and play online, since online-only players at this level almost certainly play in tough games and also would not have live experience. I think you wrote somewhere else that a poster was assuming that 12/8 players exist live, when they don't. That is so spot on.

Anyway your posts in this thread are excellent, thanks for sharing.

[Lestat]

I agree. Unless you're the type to pay off a 4th bet every time. In that case, a re-raise is dead wrong!