ATo in BB with BTN limp and SB complete

[TheFoxNL]

the 50k is 1/4th of his stack and stack is big enough for him to fold

[Hollywade]

I think the button limp shorthanded can be very suspiscious. I might just see a flop here.

[BarryLyndon]

Maybe I am contradicting myself, Sap. I don't know. My reasoning is that the smaller the stack I have, the more valuable these chips in the middle become to me. At 250K, there is 40K in the pot, I'm by far happier (maybe not 250K - 220K?) making a push here and picking up those chips. Law of diminishing returns for the win - as your stack increases to a certain point, you want to push less given the size of the pot in proportion to YOUR stack. At the same time, you must consider other stack sizes. Yes?

I do this a lot with marginal hands - sometimes I'm in error. Obviously, if you have 140K, you would push here, right? 170K? 220K? 250K?

For some reason, I assumed we were FT already. That leans me more toward a check. I think check is definitely the best play.

Also, raising to 50K is wrong, IMO. It's what a lot of players do - give yourself an excuse to get it in preflop by making a strong move, then you shoot yourself in the foot. If you think this is a massive trap, then you should check. It's that simple. If your stack is smaller and you feel like the % return you are getting from a push/FE by far outweighs your fear of a trap, then you should push. That's my reaosning, and I welcome critiques, because admittedly, it doesn't feel all that concrete.

Barry

[DeuceSeven]

Given no reads, this is the easiest shove in the world. You shove to maximize FE, AT rates to be the best hand right now, we're oop, there's about 10% of our stack on the table, and any raise get's us pot committed to a reshove from the small stacks.

[sapsuckah]

Ok, Barry... I understand where you're coming from now.

[BarryLyndon]

[ QUOTE ]
Given no reads, this is the easiest shove in the world. You shove to maximize FE, AT rates to be the best hand right now, we're oop, there's about 10% of our stack on the table, and any raise get's us pot committed to a reshove from the small stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really think that increases of your stack at 10% are for those players who aren't capable of (no offense, deuces, you're not one of these players) making more proficient moves postflop, 3-betting, etc. I want to start thinking along these lines: I'm not someone who needs to make pushes for 10% of my stack. I can find more stronger moves.

We see this "10%" rule for preflop pushes, and it's totally brutish. You're trying to accumulate 10% of your stack, all well and good, but Hagbard is one of the better posters here and doesn't need to be making massive pushes for 10% of his stack, especially right after the FT bubble.

Look - I'm trying not to be results orientated here - but over the past YEAR, pushing limpers for 10% of my stack has never resulted in me making significant advances in tournaments. Ever. It's a mouse chunk of what I needed to do to really make it - 3-bet, stop n' go, go n' go, max flop value. At 350K and right outside the FT bubble, you can raise, make strong flop plays, punish blinds to your left, etc. rather than make a push for 10% of your stack. Especially against a suspect button limp.

Barry

[tomek322]

[ QUOTE ]
You are too deep to shove (380k into a 39k pot is ridiculous).

I'd raise - make it 36k.

I'd fold to a 4-bet, too likely that you are dominated and reorientate on the flop if get called.

[/ QUOTE ]

[MJBuddy]

We're playing with effective stacks, the fact that we have 380k has nothing to do with our stack to pot ratio.

[mflip]

Ship it in, effective stacks are like 16BB's.

[hagbard celine]

[ QUOTE ]


I really think that increases of your stack at 10% are for those players who aren't capable of (no offense, deuces, you're not one of these players) making more proficient moves postflop, 3-betting, etc. I want to start thinking along these lines: I'm not someone who needs to make pushes for 10% of my stack. I can find more stronger moves.



[/ QUOTE ]

I've been finding this to be very true. Especially 3betting in these smaller tournaments where most of the players seem to open light in LP, but are oblivious to the idea that others might get hip and 3bet them light from the blinds.

And it probably goes without saying that 3betting, stop n going and go and going usually get you more chips than shoving to punish limpers