this is your war on drugs

[adios]

There's also an issue of safety regarding the usage of prescription drugs.

[AlexM]

[ QUOTE ]

Well, Capone did gun down seven people with automatic weapons with their backs turned,

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure he did... all because they were causing problems for his blackmarket alcohol empire! Those seven people were killed by Prohibition. Al merely pulled the trigger. There is little question in my mind that the murder rate today is at least double what it would be if we didn't have the War on Drugs. Let alone the rate of thefts, muggings, etc.

[ QUOTE ]
The truth is, I'd instantly call you an idiot if you were to tell me you honestly belief that illegal drug use is not higher amongst those on welfare than the rest of American society. Just from that alone, you can make the assumption that drug usage is already costing the working American public money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, so you'll do your part to help get children murdered just to keep druggies off welfare. Sweet.

(prison costs more than welfare btw!)

[DblBarrelJ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Well, Capone did gun down seven people with automatic weapons with their backs turned,

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure he did... all because they were causing problems for his blackmarket alcohol empire! Those seven people were killed by Prohibition. Al merely pulled the trigger. There is little question in my mind that the murder rate today is at least double what it would be if we didn't have the War on Drugs. Let alone the rate of thefts, muggings, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I've said, I'm against the war on drugs. I was addressing an earlier point, which is the basic mentality of people involved in that business.

I'm not sure what you do for a living, but lets work under the assumption that Bootlegging is a business, just like any other. Have you ever gunned someone down for getting in the way of your business dealings?

Capone was a criminal, just as most drug dealers are, at their heart, criminals. And when I say "criminal" I mean from the phychological standpoint, not the standpoint of breaking specific laws you may or may not agree with.

Forgive me for not thinking that every drug dealer getting out of prison if the drug laws were magically repealed would head out and go get a factory job, nor that every drug dealer still on the street will suddenly turn to McDonalds for employment when prices for narcotics tank and he can't make it in the streets anymore.

No, he's going to be the guy holding the gun to your back, robbing you. Then he'll be back in jail.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The truth is, I'd instantly call you an idiot if you were to tell me you honestly belief that illegal drug use is not higher amongst those on welfare than the rest of American society. Just from that alone, you can make the assumption that drug usage is already costing the working American public money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, so you'll do your part to help get children murdered just to keep druggies off welfare. Sweet.

(prison costs more than welfare btw!)


[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly my point, I knew I shouldn't have gotten involved with such a simple minded discussion. You're right, rainbows would pour out from the heavens and all crime would stop, if drug laws were repealed.

Look, you may have some sympathy for these people, but I don't. They'll never change. There will always be crime problems of some type. If you set the system up where they can't make money off drugs, they'll find another way to make money. The point is, the solutions aren't quick fixes. I said my passion on this issue is about 3. The reason why is because I'm unsure of my own opinions. I see huge piles of complete utter bull [censored] flying from both sides of this issue, and I feel as though I'm stuck in the middle.

[AlexM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Well, Capone did gun down seven people with automatic weapons with their backs turned,

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure he did... all because they were causing problems for his blackmarket alcohol empire! Those seven people were killed by Prohibition. Al merely pulled the trigger. There is little question in my mind that the murder rate today is at least double what it would be if we didn't have the War on Drugs. Let alone the rate of thefts, muggings, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I've said, I'm against the war on drugs. I was addressing an earlier point, which is the basic mentality of people involved in that business.

I'm not sure what you do for a living, but lets work under the assumption that Bootlegging is a business, just like any other. Have you ever gunned someone down for getting in the way of your business dealings?

Capone was a criminal, just as most drug dealers are, at their heart, criminals. And when I say "criminal" I mean from the phychological standpoint, not the standpoint of breaking specific laws you may or may not agree with.

Forgive me for not thinking that every drug dealer getting out of prison if the drug laws were magically repealed would head out and go get a factory job, nor that every drug dealer still on the street will suddenly turn to McDonalds for employment when prices for narcotics tank and he can't make it in the streets anymore.

No, he's going to be the guy holding the gun to your back, robbing you. Then he'll be back in jail.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it's going to take a generation or two to heal from the damage that the War on Drugs has caused. This isn't an excuse to not start the process.

Also, most of the drug dealers I've met would not be robbing anyone if they could no longer be drug dealers.

[natedogg]

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I wrote:

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If people want to do away with prescriptions altogether I see the "war on drugs" as basically a peripheral issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doing away with prescription drugs would IMO mean a bring about a sea change in the way medicine was practiced in this country. If you eliminate the DEA, forfeiture of assets, etc., the things that the War on Drugs brought about that would IMO have far less impact on how medicine was practiced. True that in certain instances the War on Drugs does involve prescription drug usage but it seems to me that most of the time that's not the case it seems to me. Also many prescription drugs are not of interest to DEA and law enforcement types because there's little to no black market for them. So IMO the war on drugs is peripheral issue when we're talking about doing away with prescriptions, something that will completely change the medical industry in the U.S. IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused. Are you actually asserting that you're ok with Paey going to jail but that a recreational user of heroin or a dealer of heroin should be descriminalized?

natedogg

[DblBarrelJ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Well, Capone did gun down seven people with automatic weapons with their backs turned,

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure he did... all because they were causing problems for his blackmarket alcohol empire! Those seven people were killed by Prohibition. Al merely pulled the trigger. There is little question in my mind that the murder rate today is at least double what it would be if we didn't have the War on Drugs. Let alone the rate of thefts, muggings, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I've said, I'm against the war on drugs. I was addressing an earlier point, which is the basic mentality of people involved in that business.

I'm not sure what you do for a living, but lets work under the assumption that Bootlegging is a business, just like any other. Have you ever gunned someone down for getting in the way of your business dealings?

Capone was a criminal, just as most drug dealers are, at their heart, criminals. And when I say "criminal" I mean from the phychological standpoint, not the standpoint of breaking specific laws you may or may not agree with.

Forgive me for not thinking that every drug dealer getting out of prison if the drug laws were magically repealed would head out and go get a factory job, nor that every drug dealer still on the street will suddenly turn to McDonalds for employment when prices for narcotics tank and he can't make it in the streets anymore.

No, he's going to be the guy holding the gun to your back, robbing you. Then he'll be back in jail.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it's going to take a generation or two to heal from the damage that the War on Drugs has caused. This isn't an excuse to not start the process.

Also, most of the drug dealers I've met would not be robbing anyone if they could no longer be drug dealers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take wagers I've met more drug dealers than you. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[fmxda]

Mandatory prescriptions exist because the average citizen does not have the medical training to properly dose, avoid interactions and know contraindications.

Sure, I believe it is possible with enough research for a layman to understand, as well as a doctor or pharmacist would, the drugs they should take, but many wouldn't or couldn't. And the huge negative swing in general welfare from the populace taking properly prescribed drugs to people haphazardly self-medicating is enough for government intervention IMO.

Some people are in fact allowed to self-adminster drugs, they're called doctors [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

This is not a hard concept; this is why consenting adults are not allowed to perform surgery on each other, or operate an MRI machine, etc.

I acknowledge an argument can be made for making some drugs that currently require a prescription into OTC, but I don't see it extending to all drugs.

[natedogg]

[ QUOTE ]
The OP really troubles me, and here's why. I don't like people using these arguments, because they're not commonplace.

Before you link up three or four stories to prove me wrong, hear me out. The fact of the matter is, 98% of people currently incarcerated for drug offenses are pure, recreational users. Do I have a problem with recreational drug use? Hell no, marijuana is pretty much harmless, and hard drugs kill people and I look at it as natural selection at it's finest.

But lets be honest here, using arguments like the story in the OP are no different than rabid pro-choicers dragging out stories about twelve year old girls who were raped and inpregnated by their fathers. Does it happen? Sure! Statistically, what percentage of abortions are performed because of that reason? Less than 1%.

The statistics are almost identical for those incarcerated for prescription drug and marijuana offenses who were using for medicinal purposes. I'm against the war on drugs, but lets be against it for the right reason, and not drag out some strawman argument about a situation that is a statistical blip on the radar of the overall picture.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, I was waiting for someone to make this argument, because I think it's something commonly used to justify all sorts of oppression, namely that the edge cases aren't important.

The edge cases are all that matter.

The drug war/presciption enforcement war itself is justified with an edge case, namely we must prevent the few people who will choose poorly from hurting themselves. And these few edge cases justify implementing a system that will crush a few innocents in its path but that's ok.

I say it's not ok.

I'd prefer to see a few cases of people making bad decisions for themselves than a few cases of the government tyranny.

Under no circumstances should a man like Paey ever serve even one day in jail, and this man should not be written off as collateral damage.

natedogg

PS and yes, there's plenty of cases like this and many many more. The drug war has resulted in untold numbers of terrible decisions by our government, Paey is one of thousands like him, but you suspected that when you wrote it.

[natedogg]

[ QUOTE ]
Mandatory prescriptions exist because the average citizen does not have the medical training to properly dose, avoid interactions and know contraindications.

Sure, I believe it is possible with enough research for a layman to understand, as well as a doctor or pharmacist would, the drugs they should take, but many wouldn't or couldn't. And the huge negative swing in general welfare from the populace taking properly prescribed drugs to people haphazardly self-medicating is enough for government intervention IMO.

Some people are in fact allowed to self-adminster drugs, they're called doctors [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

This is not a hard concept; this is why consenting adults are not allowed to perform surgery on each other, or operate an MRI machine, etc.

I acknowledge an argument can be made for making some drugs that currently require a prescription into OTC, but I don't see it extending to all drugs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to link you to another post in this thread that addresses the very points you make.

here

natedogg

[DblBarrelJ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The OP really troubles me, and here's why. I don't like people using these arguments, because they're not commonplace.

Before you link up three or four stories to prove me wrong, hear me out. The fact of the matter is, 98% of people currently incarcerated for drug offenses are pure, recreational users. Do I have a problem with recreational drug use? Hell no, marijuana is pretty much harmless, and hard drugs kill people and I look at it as natural selection at it's finest.

But lets be honest here, using arguments like the story in the OP are no different than rabid pro-choicers dragging out stories about twelve year old girls who were raped and inpregnated by their fathers. Does it happen? Sure! Statistically, what percentage of abortions are performed because of that reason? Less than 1%.

The statistics are almost identical for those incarcerated for prescription drug and marijuana offenses who were using for medicinal purposes. I'm against the war on drugs, but lets be against it for the right reason, and not drag out some strawman argument about a situation that is a statistical blip on the radar of the overall picture.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, I was waiting for someone to make this argument, because I think it's something commonly used to justify all sorts of oppression, namely that the edge cases aren't important.

The edge cases are all that matter.

The drug war/presciption enforcement war itself is justified with an edge case, namely we must prevent the few people who will choose poorly from hurting themselves. And these few edge cases justify implementing a system that will crush a few innocents in its path but that's ok.

I say it's not ok.

I'd prefer to see a few cases of people making bad decisions for themselves than a few cases of the government tyranny.

Under no circumstances should a man like Paey ever serve even one day in jail, and this man should not be written off as collateral damage.

natedogg

PS and yes, there's plenty of cases like this and many many more. The drug war has resulted in untold numbers of terrible decisions by our government, Paey is one of thousands like him, but you suspected that when you wrote it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now this is an argument I can agree with. You're coming out, you've got an honest answer. No [censored]. You just don't care if idiots make bad decisions. That's acceptable, and a position I can agree with.

But do not come to me with all this "Lower Crime" "Less People in Prisons" "drug use will lower" [censored] because it's all [censored]. Drug use will increase slightly, crime will stay the same, the prison population will decrease for a while, then go back to the same levels.