How badly is the US inciting Islamic hatred against itself?

[Taraz]

This may belong in Politics, but I always post here and respect the opinions of many posters here. I'm hoping that this post will spark rational discussion rather than senseless jabbering back and forth.

I've been reading about Islam and the Quran recently and the more I learn, the more scared I become that we are playing right into the hands of the radical and violent Islamic leaders.

There are many passages in the Quran that declare Christians and Jews to be spiritual brothers to Islam. The 'infidels' are only those who actively persecute and oppose Islam. And, from what I can understand, it seems like Muslims cannot justify aggression through their faith. Only self-defense.

So as long as our government keeps insinuating that Islam is a religion of violence and hate, Muslims can view America as attacking their religion. When we claim that we have to go into the Middle East and spread our ideology, radical Muslim leaders can claim that we are assaulting Islam.

It's downright scary since I can't really see either side backing down. It seems like whatever action is made, the other side will claim self-defense and continue the aggression. I think that we might have to be the first one's to turn the other cheek a little bit and stop insisting that the Muslim world conform to all of our ideals when they are clearly unready to do so.

[BluffTHIS!]

You are selectively reading the Koran. Read more and search past politics forum threads on this topic, and how the Koran says to treat non-believers if they will not convert. *And* see what current Islamic leaders/clerics say about non-believers, and Jews in particular (like Iran's president). Also, you might want to bone up on one of their philosophers, Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, a Palestinian who supported Nazi Germany.

There is all the proof in the world that Islamic fundamentalism is not content with securing freedom of worship for their own believers, but as well in denying that freedom to non-believers in many majority Moslem countries, and in imposing Shari'a law by force of arms irrespective of the wishes of the non-believers, or even fellow Moslems of differing sects. Read up on the Sudan and the religious genocide by radical Islam against Christians and animists.

Radical Islam is the primary threat to world peace now. And if some apologists for Islam maintain that really isn't what the majority of Moslems believe, then that can only be proven by that supposed majority firmly and constantly speaking out and acting against the Islamic radicals/terrorists.



Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
--9:29


People of the Book = Jews and Christians

[chezlaw]

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Radical Islam is the primary threat to world peace now. And if some apologists for Islam maintain that really isn't what the majority of Moslems believe, then that can only be proven by that supposed majority firmly and constantly speaking out and acting against the Islamic radicals/terrorists.

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That's no more true than claiming your poisition can only be supported if the majority constantly speak out in favour of Islamic radicals/terrorists.

One problem imo with US policy and British policy is that its acted in a way that makes it easier for extremists to thrive within otherwise more moderate communities and pushed people to become more extreme.

If we're not going to take an ethical approcah and try to maintain some moral high ground and win hearts and minds then the alternative is unpleasent but competent foreign policy - almost the complete opposite of the Iraq fiasco.

chez

[BluffTHIS!]

chez,

I take the mostly silence of the supposed majority, as either de facto support of the radicals, or cowardly appeasement. If the majority of Moslems are agains these radicals, and in fact oppose the imposition of Shari'a by force and the commitment to destroy Israel/the Jews, then they need to SPEAK UP.

This whole "we're alienating the moderates" [censored] is a red herring. If the majority of Moslmes truly want peace and religious tolerance, then let it be shown in the actions of the governments of their countries, and in their own personal attitudes toward women in general, and also non-believers. They expect and demand religious freedom when they emmigrate to the west, but they most often, whether overtly or more subletly, deny non-believers living in majority Moslem countries, those same rights, and you know that is true. And what is more, just as is constantly demonstrated in Iraq, they fight among themselves over religious differences.

As has often been discussed in these forums, Islam is still stuck in the mindset and practices of the middle ages, that Christians and other religiouns mostly left behind. And note that all these comments are directed mainly at the majority Moslems countries, and not to Moslems living in western countries.


When all of the following are true, we will know the majority of Moslems sincerely want peace and not to impose their faith on others by force:

1) Israel's right to exist is acknowledged;

2) A christian minister/priest can freely proclaim the gospel in Riyadh;

3) Moslems everywhere stop trying to impose Shari'a law on anyone Moslem or non-beliver who doesn't want to live under it (i.e. the rights of the minority are protected even if a majority wishes more religion in government);

4) A majority of Moslem clerics *in majority Moslem countries* denounce all the actions of Islamic terrorists, no matter against whom they are directed.

[chezlaw]

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I take the mostly silence of the supposed majority, as either de facto support of the radicals, or cowardly appeasement. If the majority of Moslems are agains these radicals, and in fact oppose the imposition of Shari'a by force and the commitment to destroy Israel/the Jews, then they need to SPEAK UP.

This whole "we're alienating the moderates" [censored] is a red herring.

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I know you do and as you must know I think you're completely wrong and we're never going to agree. I assume both our points are view are honestly held.

BUT even if for the sake of discussion we assume you're correct then the question is how best to deal with it and I find it hard to imagine how anyone thinks the incompetence of the Iraq fiasco hasn't made the situation worse. On that basis alone I think the US (and come-on we Brits deserve some credit) have done a great deal to incite Islamic hatred.

chez

[New001]

[ QUOTE ]
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
--9:29


People of the Book = Jews and Christians


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What is this even supposed to "prove?"

Do you know what the Jizya is referring to?

[BluffTHIS!]

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[ QUOTE ]
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
--9:29


People of the Book = Jews and Christians


[/ QUOTE ]
What is this even supposed to "prove?"

Do you know what the Jizya is referring to?

[/ QUOTE ]


Actually I did pass googling 101 and wiki-ing 102. And indeed I was hoping someone would fall into the "trap" there. For while that is defined as a tax on non-believers that is *supposed* to allow them to live in a Moslem civil society with freedom of worship, that isn't the way it is practiced when Christians and others in fact don't have *full* freedom of worship in many Moslem countries (even more secular Turkey which hassles and places ridiculous restrictions on the Orthodox Christians and their patriarchate). And you ignored the other parts of that quote, which indicate that the term there isn't being used in the manner it is defined as, since Moslems are enjoined to "fight" non-believers and make them "feel subdued".

The history of the spread of Islam is a violent history of forcible conversion. Though that can fairly be said of Christianity of certain limited eras, it is a constant theme in Islamic history with their desire to force Shari'a on the unwilling non-believers, even if those non-believers constitute a majority of the population in a democracy.

[Lestat]

My personal view:

While Americans value their freedom and way of life to the point we are willing to die for it, so do people of different ways of life. I feel it is wrong for the US to shove democracy down other people's throats.

I can easily see their side... A devoutly religious Muslim who lives a pious life and raises his children to do the same. He sees our way of life as the epitome of evil. Cities where gambling and prostitution are legal. Women parading around in public in skimpy revealing clothes, bars, liquor, partying, etc. etc. Of course, he doesn't want his children indoctrinated into this way of life. He has every right to feel threatened when we proclaim our wish to spread this way of life to the rest of the world. Add to this the hypocrisy we have shown in our dealings with different figures of the Mideast, and it is easy to see how we have come to be called the Great Satan.

The fact is, democracy is not for everyone, nor should we cram it down other country's throats. There are people who relish the simple (albeit difficult) life of what seems oppressive to us. Working 8 to 5 in a factory would be pure torture for me, yet I understand others find a sense of security in it. They couldn't handle my life any more than I could handle theirs. Whereas, I may make nothing or even lose money in any given week, they find comfort in collecting their guaranteed weekly checks. Never mind they have nowhere near the potential I do, nor the freedom I have. They couldn't make it. The pressures and hardships of freedom is not for everyone.

Now if people don't want to live that way, it's a different story. If people feel oppressed then we should help them find their freedom. But it's not up to us to force it upon them. That's my take anyway.

[Lestat]

<font color="blue"> I take the mostly silence of the supposed majority, as either de facto support of the radicals, or cowardly appeasement. If the majority of Moslems are agains these radicals, and in fact oppose the imposition of Shari'a by force and the commitment to destroy Israel/the Jews, then they need to SPEAK UP.</font>

I knew if I kept reading your posts, there would one day be something I absolutely agreed with! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Taraz]

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You are selectively reading the Koran.

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And I'm sure you're giving a very faithful interpretation of the text . . .

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Read more and search past politics forum threads on this topic, and how the Koran says to treat non-believers if they will not convert.

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The Koran is pretty explicit in saying that Jews and Christians are brothers and kindred spirits.

Quran 5:69: "Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabeaans, whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness--their wage waits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow."

5:82. " . . . and you will find the nearest in love to the believers (Muslims) those who say: 'We are Christians.' That is because amongst them are priests and monks, and they are not proud."

And it is pretty clear that you can't fight somebody who wants peace:

4:90 "Exempt those who join a people with whom you have concluded a peace treaty, and those who come to you with hearts unwilling to fight you, nor to fight their relatives. Had God willed, he could have placed them in power over you and they would have made war on you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then God gives you no way to go against them."

4:94: . . . Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this life. For God has abundant treasure. You used to be like them, after all, and then God blessed you.

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*And* see what current Islamic leaders/clerics say about non-believers, and Jews in particular (like Iran's president). Also, you might want to bone up on one of their philosophers, Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, a Palestinian who supported Nazi Germany.

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Come on, these people are about as representative of Islam as Jerry Fallwell is of Christianity. Why are "current Islamic leaders" in your mind only the ones who want war?


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There is all the proof in the world that Islamic fundamentalism is not content with securing freedom of worship for their own believers, but as well in denying that freedom to non-believers in many majority Moslem countries, and in imposing Shari'a law by force of arms irrespective of the wishes of the non-believers, or even fellow Moslems of differing sects. Read up on the Sudan and the religious genocide by radical Islam against Christians and animists.

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That's why it's called Islamic fundamentalism and radical Islam and not "mainstream Islam". That's like pointing to the Inquisition, the Crusades, and Hitler and saying, "look at the genocide by radical Christianity against non-believers!"

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Radical Islam is the primary threat to world peace now. And if some apologists for Islam maintain that really isn't what the majority of Moslems believe, then that can only be proven by that supposed majority firmly and constantly speaking out and acting against the Islamic radicals/terrorists.

[/ QUOTE ]

I most definitely agree that radical Islam is a huge threat to the world. But I don't understand why you are ignoring the majority of the Muslim world. Here is a breakdown of Muslims by country:

Iran - 67 million
Iraq - 25 million
Egypt - 72 million
Afghanistan - 31 million
Saudi Arabia - 26 million
Syria - 16 million

Compare that with these countries:

Indonesia - 213 million
India - 175 million
Pakistan - 161 million
Turkey - 79 million

Now if you couple that with poll results done by the Pew Global Attitudes project you see something interesting. The following % of people responded that violence is often or sometimes justified against civilians in defense of Islam:

Pakistan - 25%
Turkey - 14%
Indonesia - 15%

This means about 120 million Pakistani Muslims, 68 million Turkish Muslims, and 181 million Indonesian Muslims think violence against civilians is never or rarely justified. That's over 350 million Muslims!!!! That's more Muslims than there are total Muslims in that first group of countries!!!