Sort of a standard spot I think is interesting

[aislephive]

Not a specific hand, but more of a general thing.

$400nl 6 max game, say we raise with a hand like Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] from the CO. Button is the type of TAG to cold call with a wide enough range that he is capable of showing up with a lot of different suited connectors, pairs, broadway hands, etc. You figure he is probably capable of making moves in position like most people are although you don't know that for sure.

Anyways, button calls and the blinds fold. The flop is low and wet, something like 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. These spots have always confused me a bit. If we bet in his shoes it's hard for him to see us hitting this flop, and I imagine he knows he can raise and represent a lot of hands and I'd be forced to fold my whiffed overcards, underpairs, weak draws, etc, which is a ton of my range. I'm not sure if he is thinking on this level or not, but I would assume most are?

I find myself often c/fing in this type of spot, but I'm not sure if that's a leak. Are most of you betting here? Do you think TAG types fold enough on this board texture for it to be profitable?

You could also apply this to things like we raise from the button with something that didn't flop anything on this low/wet board against the good aggressive TAG who just called in the BB. I feel like I get check/raised a lot here so often times I'll just check behind and give up on the pot basically.

Thoughts?

[tcorbin16]

just cbet.

[cassette]

OOP I am c-betting until I have a read that villain is playing on the level you described. You're giving to much credit to the average reg.

[tozzy]

youll have to balance. if your oop, 3bet him with air. if hes the kind of tag to bet all his range when checked to (theres a lot), c/r yourself.
if your in position and feel you might get outplayed a lot, check behind and reev turn, call with Ahi if he bets sometimes.

edit: im not saying stop cbetting oop. just mix up your plays once you play a villain that you know is capable of making moves.

[aislephive]

Good points Tozzy, I don't utilize the the flop checkraise often enough after I raise pf.

[FionnMac]

Not sure i agree with you that it doesn't hit our range, i assume most regs raise 45s from the co, 67s for top two, obv all sets and over pairs, not to mention numerous draws with which we can 3-bet shove if he raises. In general i am c-betting QJo here.

[xorbie]

c/f is totally fine here. if you get him firing 100% of the time when you check, just start to c/r these boards with a large variety of hands.

[aislephive]

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure i agree with you that it doesn't hit our range, i assume most regs raise 45s from the co, 67s for top two, obv all sets and over pairs, not to mention numerous draws with which we can 3-bet shove if he raises. In general i am c-betting QJo here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well sure 33/66/77/45s/67s/88+ is all within my range, but it's a lot more likely that I have total air than I am to have hit this board.

Let's say villain is a tough laggy regular who contests a lot of pots postflop. How are we proceeding with a hand like A7/A6 here? Bet/3bet seems a little dangerous, bet/fold seems too weak, and bet/call seems bad since there are so many bad turn cards we don't know what to do on, etc. Check/call doesn't seem too great either, but it doesn't look like there are many better solutions.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not sure i agree with you that it doesn't hit our range, i assume most regs raise 45s from the co, 67s for top two, obv all sets and over pairs, not to mention numerous draws with which we can 3-bet shove if he raises. In general i am c-betting QJo here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well sure 33/66/77/45s/67s/88+ is all within my range, but it's a lot more likely that I have total air than I am to have hit this board.

Let's say villain is a tough laggy regular who contests a lot of pots postflop. How are we proceeding with a hand like A7/A6 here? Bet/3bet seems a little dangerous, bet/fold seems too weak, and bet/call seems bad since there are so many bad turn cards we don't know what to do on, etc. Check/call doesn't seem too great either, but it doesn't look like there are many better solutions.

[/ QUOTE ]

This board is too wet for him to get out of line on unless your PFR is through the roof. If he repots with air, he needs to win 2/3 of the time to break even. let's say you'll come over the top with set, overpair, 2 pair, straight, good flush draw. 33/66/77/2pair/straight/good spades/88+ is like 8% of hands.

So if your PFR is over 24% in that spot, it might be a good bluff; if it's under 24%, it's really not.

[Josh.]

id c-bet personally but i agree with everything xorbie wrote. mainly i think some good 2- and 3- barrelling opportunities will come up