PSA - nOObs please read this

[bozlax]

We have a lot of posters currently who are to a greater or lesser degree new to the forum, and I've written this in two different threads today, so I'm going to post it as a general PSA:

Stop posting hands and asking, "What should I do/what would you guys do/what's the right play here?"

There's no magic pill, there are no correct answers. You're not going to learn anything by somebody telling you, "easy-peasy fold," which is the kind of response these questions engender. If you're not going to put any work into asking the question, why should we put any work into answering it.

1. Give reads. If you have no reads on the specific player in question, at least give your general read of the table. If you've only just sat down at the table, give your general read for the site/limit. If you're playing at a brand new site, or a new limit, at a new table, against an unknown opponent, don't post the hand...seriously, just don't post it, because there's really nothing anybody can say about the hand. People will tell lots of things about the limit or the site as an entre to giving advice on the hand, but then the question isn't really about the hand, is it?

2. Give your thoughts. Don't just say, "What should I do?" say, "I think this is a situation where I should check/call and my reasons are X, 3 and iii." Then we can critique your thought-process, which is what we're really trying to do here.

The problem is that while hands fall into general categories, all hands are different, and you have to adjust on the fly to changing conditions. So, worrying about how to play THIS hand is pointless, since you'll likely never see the exact same conditions again; instead worry about playing hands LIKE this hand, e.g. "I have TPTK with the ace of flush and I get bet into when the third flush card falls on the turn/river, I think I should x."

3. Stop picking fights. You came in asking for advice, advice was given, and now you've got your panties in a twist because SSHE says you should try to win a big pot, or Ed's Famous Post says don't fold. You're here asking us for advice because we've been here for longer than you have. Do you honestly think that Aaron or I or Wookie or Harv or even Kit don't know what SSHE and Ed Miller say? Because, if that's your opinion of the veteran posters, then why did you ask our opinion in the first place?

That doesn't mean don't disagree. If you think that advice given on the forum is contradictory to something you've read elsewhere, point that out. When told that it's either not contradictory, what you've read is not applicable, or the respondent's opinion differs from what you've read, disagree, cite your source, read the response and incorporate it into your knowledge base. But don't throw something that you know I've read at me as a justification for starting a debate.

(The above being said, yes, this is an Interweb forum. People do get out of line, quite frequently. Before responding in kind, take a moment to consider that the respondent may have just answered the EXACT SAME QUESTION, maybe even from you, 3 times in the past week and 15 times in the past month, and 50 times in the past year, and might be a little tired of typing the same thing over and over. We do assume that you've done some homework on your own, so when 3 "2PTK + FD and I get donked into on the turn" hands appear in the first 5 threads after the stickies on the same day, we tend to get a little testy.)


[/rant]

[OziBattler]

yep I agree. we see too many "no reads, no stats" type posts and whilst some are obviously genuine some people just arent trying hard enough. Please be accepting this challenge to make posts better...it will make the forum better and it will make you better at poker.

Also when someone replies to your posts asking you WHY you played your hand a certain way and WHAT you were thinknig you really need to have a go at answering....not because we want to show you up and make you look foolish (we understand that you asked the question cos you arent sure what to do but you must have had some thoughts so post them) but because you want to get better at poker. If someone calls you out and asks you to respond in a thread you start then just do it or else people wont bother giving their time to reply to your threads.

[Smurph64]

Can I join in the rant?

I used to wonder why the so called experts would post short little dingles like

bet/fold turn standard

check/call fold ui

etc.

I used to say to myself, why the fluck are they bothering to post at all. Hell I even asked that question in one or two of my earlier posts.

I never got a direct answer. But something strange happened.

Aaron or Ozi or Wookiee or Miles or boz or str8fish or heck 6 or 7 more would post one of these gems in my thread and I would then have the gall to ask them why? I would explain to them why I thought they were wrong, what I was thinking at the time and why I was right.

And you know what would happen, a few hours or a day or two would pass and then their would be this elaborate and detailed explanation or there would be some mysterious link to another thread show up in my thread.

And wow, would they rip into me often in the process. I mean I felt like I got cattle prodded, stepped on, scorned, ridiculed and generally humiliated.

I felt like quitting the boards, saying fluck you, you are wrong, you are wrong, you are wrong, I can't believe how flucking wrong you are. I didn't though, I would post some more and some more and some more continually explaining why they were wrong.

I would look up other hands and try and trick them, I would dig through their old posts and look for situations where they agreed with me. Man I would do so much to beat them and prove they were FLUCKING wrong.

Today, I find myself posting one shot answers more than I did before. I find it ironic however that the only people who tell me I am wrong still are the older posters.

Folks, step it up and tell people they are wrong and go ahead and prove it.

Go out and prove it. Don't rely on old posts and quotes from books. Sure go ahead and use them to prove your arguments but THINK for yourself at the same time.

As boz has stated. There are no easy answers. If there were no one would play poker because it would be a net zero game like Tic Tac Toe.

Go ahead and be wrong and be loud. And grow a thicker skin.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
If there were no one would play poker because it would be a net zero game like Tic Tac Toe.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the rake on Tic Tac Toe? Cuz the only place where poker can be a zero-sum game, short or long term, is at a rakeless table.

[/nit]

Sure as hell wouldn't be much fun, tho, would it?

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If there were no one would play poker because it would be a net zero game like Tic Tac Toe.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the rake on Tic Tac Toe? Cuz the only place where poker can be a zero-sum game, short or long term, is at a rakeless table.

[/nit]

Sure as hell wouldn't be much fun, tho, would it?

[/ QUOTE ]

[supernit]Just because the house always wins, it doesn't imply that this isn't a zero sum game. All the money goes *somewhere* and no money is magically generated during the game.[/supernit]

[superubernit]But if you want to believe this, you have to count the dealer as a player (tokes) and the service as players (drinks and tips).[/superubernit]

[BadBigBabar]

boz, solid long content-filled post. babar bows to you and agrees with your general sentiments.