strange BJ variant (non-casino) beatable?

rchandra · #1 04-20-2006, 09:42 AM

Hi,

I'm wondering if Blackjack is beatable under the following variations, several of which make it not truly blackjack, I think:

Blackjack pays 2:1
5-card charlie pays 3:1 (no need to win, just not bust)
Dealer blackjack takes twice Player's bet
Dealer 5-card charlie takes thrice Player's bet
Dealer's hole card is not revealed until player stands/busts
Dealer stands all 17.
Dealer wins ties.
Single deck, shuffled after each hand

... and the one that makes me ask, player chooses bet size after seeing first card, with max 50x min.

So, what do youl think? Apologies if this should be in Probability.

No-Prize for the first person who mentions where this is from.

Yads · #2 04-20-2006, 12:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Dealer blackjack takes twice Player's bet
Dealer 5-card charlie takes thrice Player's bet

[/ QUOTE ]

What happens if the player is broke after making the initial bet?

jman220 · #3 04-20-2006, 01:13 PM

Post this in probability, you'll get better answers. You can't count, and tie going to a dealer is awful. However, the fact that you can bet after seeing your first card... (I'm guessing you have to bet at least the min though, you can't "fold"?)

bpb · #4 04-20-2006, 02:04 PM

This game has to be insanely profitable.

In a standard BJ game, starting with an A gives the hand a +.5 unit expectation. In this variant, it is probably a little better, because while you lose to ties, you get a 2:1 BJ payout and a 3:1 5-card payout.

Losing to ties adds about 10% to the base HA of the game. I'm not sure of the 3-card charlie effect, because the I'm assuming that a dealer 5-card hand always beats your 5-card hand.

Regardless, the 1-50 bet spread is the key. Even assuming that you are at a 40% disadvantage every time you are dealt a 2-10 (way too high an estimate) and are a 20% favorite every time you are dealt an A (way too low), the game would have a player edge of 40%. The actual player edge is probably over 100%.

Thremp · #5 04-20-2006, 04:03 PM

Looks like you'd basically play the min everytime until you got an A correct?

AvivaSimplex · #6 04-20-2006, 04:19 PM

Tens and twos might also be +EV, but obviously not as much as aces.

Where is this from, btw?

jman220 · #7 04-20-2006, 09:37 PM

Quick Question: Do you also see the dealer's upcard when your first card is laid out, or no?

rchandra · #8 04-21-2006, 06:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Quick Question: Do you also see the dealer's upcard when your first card is laid out, or no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I worded some lines poorly earlier. You don't see anything on the dealer's side until you bust or stand. So the dealer has no upcard. If you 5-card charlie you win immediately .. not sure whether that would beat dealer BJ or not. I'll check that.

And to clarify the other thing, this is not from any casino or other place where you can play for money.

ChrisV · #9 04-21-2006, 12:44 AM

I would be extremely surprised if this wasn't +EV. If you PM me where the game is spread, if it's somewhere where I can play it, I'll run some computer analysis.

rchandra · #10 04-21-2006, 06:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Blackjack pays 2:1
5-card charlie pays 3:1 (no need to win, just not bust)
Dealer blackjack takes twice Player's bet
Dealer 5-card charlie takes thrice Player's bet
Dealer's hole card is not revealed until player stands/busts
Dealer stands all 17.
Dealer wins ties.
Single deck, shuffled after each hand

... and the one that makes me ask, player chooses bet size after seeing first card, with max 50x min.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see I somehow forgot to mention a few things, in addition to the clarification I posted already.

No doubles.
No splits.

This would probably have been easier to define from the ground up, instead of "Blackjack, but with this and that and the other" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]