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#21
05-03-2007, 03:19 PM
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Re: A street by street break down with KK in moscow millions sat
Nath, I think you are right and checking the turn with a strongish hand too often may be a leak that's developed in my game.
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#22
05-03-2007, 03:28 PM
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Re: A street by street break down with KK in moscow millions sat
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I can't see TT/JJ betting, his bet looking like it's crying out for a call so I think it's prob a fold. [/ QUOTE ] I think TT/JJ/A9/TJ will bet the river because bond didn't show any strength... bond's play would generally induce river bluffing from these hands, but risky. [/ QUOTE ] NY- how can you group TT/JJ with A9 and TJ here. Why these hands would bet is for completely different reasons, although i may accpet that by betting TT/JJ, they are turned into a bluff. If they are betting TT/JJ, it is for value, if not, they should be checking behind as they think only better hands are calling a river bet. IF they are betting A9/JT, then it is indeed a bluff, but, the chance of A9 getting to the river, given PF raise seems unlikely, J10 somewhat unlikely given the PF raise also. I think you have to bet this turn for the reasons shaun and nath have stated. As for river, you've kinda [censored] yourself in this hand so I say call and berate yourself for letting him catch up so cheaply. Given that its 800 more to win 2400, your are probably getting the right price (??) to call given his range. Although I think this is trip Qs alot of the time (like QJs/QK)
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#23
05-03-2007, 03:32 PM
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Re: A street by street break down with KK in moscow millions sat
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] ...A cbet-appearing flop bet followed by a turn check with a big hand is one of my favorite moves as well, although I like it a little more when it induces a shove then in these situations. That being said, I'm still not sure whether I like a turn lead or check here... [/ QUOTE ] I normally don't check strong hand on the turn. But I think check a set on a safe-board on the turn is good. Would you like to check/raise your big pair on the turn? or still check/call to induce a river bluff? [/ QUOTE ] I seems to me that people who like checking turn are probably not bluff betting the turn enough (i.e. double barreling enough)
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#24
05-03-2007, 03:38 PM
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Re: A street by street break down with KK in moscow millions sat
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I think TT/JJ/A9/TJ will bet the river because bond didn't show any strength... bond's play would generally induce river bluffing from these hands, but risky. [/ QUOTE ] NY- how can you group TT/JJ with A9 and TJ here. [/ QUOTE ] The actual play grouped TT/JJ/A9/TJ together on the river. In another word, all these hands stay till the river. I agree TT/JJ bet for value and A9 ... for value by some players and for bluffing by others; TJ is bluffing which makes the hand Bond respresents to villain hard to call. The question is A9,TJ may fold PF, but some people may not fold PF given the stack size and position. That's why it's important to bet the turn isolate these hands from the group.
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#25
05-03-2007, 03:45 PM
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Re: A street by street break down with KK in moscow millions sat
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I think TT/JJ/A9/TJ will bet the river because bond didn't show any strength... bond's play would generally induce river bluffing from these hands, but risky. [/ QUOTE ] NY- how can you group TT/JJ with A9 and TJ here. [/ QUOTE ] The actual play grouped TT/JJ/A9/TJ together on the river. In another word, all these hands stay till the river. The question is A9,TJ may fold PF, but some people may not fold PF given the stack size and position. That's why it's important to bet the turn isolate these hands from the group. [/ QUOTE ] I accept the first sentence, however, there is a pretty subtle point here, that betting the turn will not isolate these hands from this group (in all likelihood). IF they have called PF and flop with these hands, then they are unlikely to fold to a turn bet as well. As I said before, I think betting turn is correct, but I dont think you are folding out these hands if they've got this far, which is even more reason why we should bet turn.
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#26
05-03-2007, 05:04 PM
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Re: A street by street break down with KK in moscow millions sat
[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I check the turn with big hands, too, but I'm always raising a damn 1/4 pot bet here. You guys really underestimate the amount of bad players in MTTs.... [/ QUOTE ] This is spot on, check calling that turn is just too weak IMO.
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#27
05-03-2007, 05:41 PM
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Re: A street by street break down with KK in moscow millions sat
[ QUOTE ]
And I mentioned Bond specifically because I feel like I've read several recent hands of his where he just check-calls with what's clearly the best hand. That's pretty much the opposite of "pressing an edge". [/ QUOTE ] This is often wrong. Check/calling the best hand to induce bets when villain would otherwise fold if we took the lead is absolutely not the opposite of "pressing an edge."
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#28
05-03-2007, 05:41 PM
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Re: A street by street break down with KK in moscow millions sat
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] NY- how can you group TT/JJ with A9 and TJ here. [/ QUOTE ] The actual play grouped TT/JJ/A9/TJ together on the river. In another word, all these hands stay till the river. The question is A9,TJ may fold PF, but some people may not fold PF given the stack size and position. That's why it's important to bet the turn isolate these hands from the group. [/ QUOTE ] I accept the first sentence, however, there is a pretty subtle point here, that betting the turn will not isolate these hands from this group (in all likelihood). IF they have called PF and flop with these hands, then they are unlikely to fold to a turn bet as well. As I said before, I think betting turn is correct, but I dont think you are folding out these hands if they've got this far, which is even more reason why we should bet turn. [/ QUOTE ] I agree with you. Yes, these hands may also call the turn bet. But these hands will become very "soft" on the river giving us easy river decision. That's why the turn bet not only isolates hands, finds out where we stand, also makes easy river decision. From the original hand, we have a tough river decision - is villain betting on a set, a Queen, a straight, under pair, a bluff? we don't know (because we didn't "ask" at the turn.)
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#30
05-03-2007, 08:12 PM
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Re: A street by street break down with KK in moscow millions sat
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] And I mentioned Bond specifically because I feel like I've read several recent hands of his where he just check-calls with what's clearly the best hand. That's pretty much the opposite of "pressing an edge". [/ QUOTE ] This is often wrong. Check/calling the best hand to induce bets when villain would otherwise fold if we took the lead is absolutely not the opposite of "pressing an edge." [/ QUOTE ] Sometimes, yes. But this situation usually presents itself with a medium strength hand on the river. Here Bond checks the turn, and after inducing a very weak bluff, if it is a bluff, just calls. The problem with inducing a bluff on an earlier street is that the villain is rarely drawing dead; you got your bet out of him, so now throw in a raise. A plan to check / call to induce multiple bluffs is FPS. I had another post written that expressed this better, but I lost it. Basically, you're going to get more money in general betting for value on the flop and turn. I wouldn't bother to induce a bluff unless the pot was sizable on the river and I felt reasonably sure villain was drawing (and of course the occasional turn check-raise vs. a habitual floater). Here, I have no idea what Bond thinks villain has or how he thinks this line gets the most value out of him. BTW, I think people saying a bet with JJ / TT / A9 is solely a bluff are wrong; an attentive villain would realize Bond never has a queen here and think two pair is likely good.
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