Rule of 5 & 10

[SodaSurfer]

What is the "Rule of 5 and 10"? From another post, it's related to playing suited connectors in position. Thanks.

[jordiepop]

it has to do with calling raises in nl holdem. if its 5% of ur stack make the call and if its 10% fold. i BELIEVE this has to do with speculative hands. also this is a raw explanation.... im sure someone can do better

[bobbyi]

The rule is originally from Ciaffone and Reuben's (excellent) book Pot Limit and No Limit Poker. They say that if you are in position and you are considering calling a raise preflop with a speculative hand like a small pair or suited connector, you should not fold if the raise is less than 5% of the effective stack size and should not call if it is more than 10%. Between those amounts, you have to use your judgment.

[QuickLearner]

When Bobbyi speaks of "effective stack size" he means the smaller of the two stacks when you compare yours against the opponent's. For example, if your stack is 70 big blinds and your oppponent's is 150 big blinds, the effective stack size (which you use when figuring out the 5% or 10%) for both of you is 70 big blinds. You can't win more than 70 big blinds if thats all you have to bet. Five percent of 70 BB is 3.5 BB so a 3.5BB raise is almost an automatic call. If you're asked to call a raise over 7BB then you probably should strongly consider folding instead.

[phydaux]

Good one, quick. The oposite is true, and probably more important because it will happen more often.

When some short stacker with only 25BB in front of him raises 5BB, you muck your pocket Tens.

The one time you hit a set and bust him won't pay for all the other times the flop comes something like KQ4 and you have to muck.

[SodaSurfer]

Thanks for all the replies!

[iwannawon]

Question about this. If the rule is 5/10 and the shorter stack is 25BB. 10% is 2.5 BB. What's considered speculative and how does position factor in? Fold TT to a standard 3 BB raise from LP? Wouldn't a LP raise be on a much wider range?

[phydaux]

The Rule is for speculative hands. TT has some showdown power, so perhaps it was a bad example to use for the rule.

Say you have a small pair like 55. You're playing this hand for set value. You want to see a cheap flop, make your set and get paid off by a hand like TPTK.

So say you limp from MP, and SB raises 3xBB. Now it costing you 3BB total to see that flop. Let's do some math.

With any pocket pair, you are 8:1 to hit a set on the flop. That means that if this same situation happens over and over, it will cost you 8 x 3BB when you miss. So you end up paying 24BB on the way to hitting your set. If SB raises 4-5BB, then playing to hit your set can cost you 24-40BB before you ever make your set (we're talking long run here, being in this same situation hundreds of times).

So if it's costing you upwards of 40BB to make your set, then if the pre-flop raiser has less than 40BB in front of him you can't call his raise. If you make your hand and stack him, it won't cover all the times you missed your set and had to muck.

Simple implied odds.

What's worse, there's a chance SB isn't an idiot and won't stack off with TPTK. So even if he has, say, 50BB in front of him you may only win half the stack. 25BB isn't enough implied odds to go calling raises with speculative hands.

And then there's the 1 time in 100 where you lose your stack to set over set.

75BB is the minimum effective stack to call a raise pre-flop with a speculative hand. And even then, unless you're fairly sure of your man and that you can get most of his stack if you hit, then calling for more than 5% can be wrong.

(The math for SC's making an OESD is similar, but not necessarily for so suited aces, since most betting shuts down when the third flush card hits. And you don't want to get stuck playing drawing hands OOP anyway, so the Rule is always about calling raises when you have position.)

This is why short stacking is such a difficult strategy to exploit. King Nit is trying to set mine, and the short stacker is constantly stealing his limps & blinds. And even if King Nit has TT he still has to fold to the short stacker, since the short stacker isn't raising with speculative hands and hoping to flop a monster. The short stacker is just playing to make top pair on the flop. So his range is much smaller.

TT vs, say, QJ is 50/50 before the flop, but King Nit knows the all-in is coming on the flop if even one face card falls. Does King Nit really want to risk half his stack when the short stacker probably has a better pair? No he doesn't. Tournament maybe, but not a cash game. So he folds pre-flop, and saves a few BB.

Lots of dynamics. We're way beyond the Rule of 5 & 10 now. But it's good stuff. NL cash games are poker! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[QuickLearner]

Is this a good spot to start a discussion of whether the rule of 5&10 is too loose? should it be 3&7, or maybe 5&8? Especially for beginners?

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
Good one, quick. The oposite is true, and probably more important because it will happen more often.

When some short stacker with only 25BB in front of him raises 5BB, you muck your pocket Tens.

The one time you hit a set and bust him won't pay for all the other times the flop comes something like KQ4 and you have to muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm....maybe with pocket 2's, but I'm probably gonna shove all-in with TT.