Video: Joe Tall vs DeathDonkey 2/4 HU with Holecard Camera!

[DeathDonkey]

Hey Garland...ok long post coming:

Joe comments many times that I peel the flop light, but I don't think that is much of a negative. First off, he is CRing me with a pretty wide range, often having second and third pair, so against that range my two "overcards" to second pair are often in reasonable shape. Second, it gives me the opportunity to take advantage of scary turn and river cards from time to time and steal some pots. Third, being viewed as a "light peeler" forces a reasonable opponent to CR me with a more narrow range on the flop (big win for me!) and may lead to them playing a bit weak tight against me, for fear that innocuous turn/river cards help me and just the whole "its tough to put him on a hand" feeling.

Flop cap with 75 was a little bit optimistic, but it was very early in the match and I often do things early in a match as "feelers" to see how my opponent reacts and with what cards. I felt there was a decent chance I had 10 outs here and maybe some fold equity on certain cards.

I think I played the KT clubs hand really really well. Joe wasn't 3 betting a wide range from the BB, so that flop was pretty terrifying, as he pretty much has a showdownable hand or a monster unless he has exactly KQ, which still probably gets to the river. I also thought by just calling the flop I would get excess action from Ax if I hit my draw because he would put me on a worse ace if I raise turn, and I get around the same from his pocket pairs because he probably just goes into call down mode regardless of when I raise.

K7 trifecta hand I'll come to last because there was another post by you and Joe about it with more info/thoughts...

I don't think AJo is a standard 4 bet hand preflop at all, against the range Joe was 3 betting me with. Also its good to have a decent ace in your range there so that you get some action on the ace high flops.

The QQ hand - ok this was the worst hand I played IMO. I actually don't mind my river CR, it looks super fishy and he calls me with any pair, though he definitely has trips a lot. For some reason at the time I felt he wouldn't 3 bet me with trips on the river (SpicyF theorem at work I guess) and then when he did I spite paid it off. My call there is terrible.

K7 trifecta hand I think I played this hand very reasonably, I wasn't just going for a trifecta. I gave his flop 3 bet a lot of respect at this point in the match so I was probably just going to call down until I improved on the turn. The CR on flop and turn both seem obvious to me. Then the river card came down and at this point that was a complete brick in my mind, unless he had KQ in which case I was about to get owned, but whatever. Remember I'm putting Joe on pretty much a good King at this point. If I bet, he certainly just calls, after just calling my turn raise. If I check, there is no way he checks behind, my hand looks like a semibluff or marginal hand that was out of line on the turn. I think the fact that he value bet a 6 here is good evidence that he would value bet a king quickly, and I don't think he would have been able to get off the king even when I CR river. Maybe he would but I still get the 1 BB. I don't see much downside to my line here.

-DeathDonkey

[2muchneon]

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Great video! I’ve played limit heads up online a couple of years ago, and have a different perspective of it nowadays. Now I only get the chance live when a game breaks down and the opponent gets stubborn and wants to play me 1 on 1. Great analysis by JoeTall. It would be interesting to have a parallel video from DeathDonkey’s perspective. I have some notes with times for reference. Obviously I get to see both hole cards, so I may be biased, but take this as it is.

Notes: [DD = DeathDonkey, Joe = JoeTall (not to get confused with JT and Jack-Ten, heh) ]

Interesting that DD was playing ATC style (did he ever fold pre-flop? Note: yes three times - 32o twice and 42o once), while Joe had periods switching back and forth between playing ATC and folding some hands pre. Not saying it’s right or wrong, just interesting.



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Watching people play is usually pretty boring but I watched a few minutes of this. It's much better if you can see both sets of cards.

It's like: "NOOOOO, don't fold!!"

Folding 42o before the flop? Nice to know someone has standards.

[2muchneon]

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K7 trifecta hand I think I played this hand very reasonably, I wasn't just going for a trifecta. I gave his flop 3 bet a lot of respect at this point in the match so I was probably just going to call down until I improved on the turn. The CR on flop and turn both seem obvious to me. Then the river card came down and at this point that was a complete brick in my mind, unless he had KQ in which case I was about to get owned, but whatever. Remember I'm putting Joe on pretty much a good King at this point. If I bet, he certainly just calls, after just calling my turn raise. If I check, there is no way he checks behind, my hand looks like a semibluff or marginal hand that was out of line on the turn. I think the fact that he value bet a 6 here is good evidence that he would value bet a king quickly, and I don't think he would have been able to get off the king even when I CR river. Maybe he would but I still get the 1 BB. I don't see much downside to my line here.

-DeathDonkey

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Also don't underestimate the psychological effects of pulling off a sucessful trifecta! Against some opponents they will start playing more tentatively and others might
just go on tilt!!

[DeathDonkey]

Hey neon,

If you get bored and watch more of it I'd value your feedback on my play - you're pretty well regarded as a HU beast [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

[Garland]

Hi DeathDonkey,

Long post coming back at you:

Warning: I’m going to be me making a lot of comments that might make you say “But you see his hole cards." That is very true. I’m gonna comment anyways. So here’s my very detailed rebuttal.

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First off, he is CRing me with a pretty wide range, often having second and third pair, so against that range my two "overcards" to second pair are often in reasonable shape.

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False. I don’t know your guys’ history before this video, but your thinking is way off on this particular session. Some simple statistics on what Joe’s flop action OOP means. In the almost hour video:

(a) Joe flop check-raised you exactly four times.
In 3 of the 4 cases, he had top pair or better. Only in one case did he have worse than top pair and that was T7 on a 873 board. Translation: Respect his flop check-raise.

(b) Here’s what Joe’s flop donk means: 5 2nd pair, 2 bottom pair, 1 top pair, one flopped straight and 1 king high.

(c) Here’s what Joe’s flop check call means: 2 2nd pair, 2 bottom pair, 4 top pair, 1 straight draw and 1 air.

Yes, I get to see hole cards, but you could have inferred this from the frequency that he check-raised the flop. However, that “he is CRing me with a pretty wide range, often having second and third pair” statement absolutely does apply to your flop check-raise playing style.

I kind of figured you were doing that "turn the top card into a deuce" deal playing heads up. I just thought you were overdoing it. I also think they were wrong spots to peel for scare cards which I’ll get to soon. I don't do it at all (probably because when my live opponents do it to me heads up/3-handed, they always have top pair).

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Second, it gives me the opportunity to take advantage of scary turn and river cards from time to time and steal some pots

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Here are the times I felt you made "marginal" peels along with what Joe actually had:

(1) JTs on 53K r (Joe had K5 and c/r)
(2) K7 on 29A (2 diamonds, you have K) (Joe had A3 and c/r)
(3) 97 on Q26 (2 diamonds, you have 7) (Joe had KQ and c/r)

Note: Joe has top pair or two pair each time he check-raised you here. I think you’re confusing your own play from Joes. You actually do check-raise with bottom/middle pair along with air and draws. So it’s Joe that actually owns the right to peel with two “overs” to 2nd pair as he did at 33:10 when you check-raised A64r when you held 58o and Joe held K9o and you check-raised out of position. You might want to adjust your read on Joe. He’s not getting out-of-line like you are.

In regards to taking advantage of scary turn and river cards, peeling in your 3 examples above doesn’t offer a ton of opportunities to shop for a scary turn/river because on those examples the flop was disjointed and in one case, rainbow. This would be far different than if the flop were 679 or something monotone for example. These kind of flops offers chances to make a play at Joe given the right turn or river card regardless of what two cards you hold.

I think calling the c/r in at least 2 of those three situations above is just throwing away money.

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I think I played the KT clubs hand really really well.

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Obviously the flop could have helped him too, that’s true. I’m just a big fan of semi-bluffing. He could release a small pair right away. He might check to you on the turn and give you a free card. Given his playing style, he probably won't make a 3-bet play back at you unless he specifically holds an A.

Did you consider raising the turn? I could tell by the pause on the flop and also a slight one on the turn that you were probably considering it.

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I don't think AJo is a standard 4 bet hand preflop at all, against the range Joe was 3 betting me with.


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I think you’re giving Joe too much credit. Here are the hands Joe was 3-betting you with pre-flop:

AA, KK, TT, 99, AK, AQo twice, AJo, A9o, A8o twice, A6s, KQo, QJ twice.

Again, I see the cards, but you can infer this from frequency and showdowns. Your AJ with position is solid against his range and should be capped. Joe might be tight, but he’s not a statue. He knows how to 3-bet against your range, and you should respond with a 4-bet. Let’s put it this way: If AJo isn’t worth a 4-bet against Joe’s 3-bet OOP, then Joe is not 3-betting enough. This is certainly not the case.

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The QQ hand - ok this was the worst hand I played IMO. I actually don't mind my river CR,


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My point was, if you’re check-raising the river, why aren’t you check-raising the turn?

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K7 trifecta hand… Remember I'm putting Joe on pretty much a good King at this point.

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Yes, I kind of figured you had to figure that Joe “had” to have a K by calling the turn check-raise. If I played the J6 hand and actually got to the river, I’m the type of guy who will never get “trifecta”ed because (a) I won’t give my opponent that pleasure because I’m never betting the river (b) If I did actually did have a hand, I probably would have given more action in previous streets.

All in all, I hated Joe’s turn call of the check-raise, and I hated the river value bet by Joe even more. And given your read of the situation, I don’t hate your river check-raise.

More Notes:

15:20 – Bad payoff by DD on river check-raise to Joe with 36o on 243 8 (turn) 2 (river).

31:20 – After DD gets out of line with 9Ts 3-betting OOP and Joe capping AJo, that’s quite the ambitious turn call with the board 525 4 with no flush draw.

38:30 – Joe has J9 and DD has 25o After Joe just check-calls 9 2 4r flop and donks a J turn, DD raises with bottom pair and makes a very, very questionable call of Joe’s 3-bet.

Upon 2nd viewing, I did find other hands DD folded pre-flop. 5 times total:
32o twice, 42o once, J2o once, 92o once. Glad to see you have standards [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Garland

[Joe Tall]

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can u please explain ur thinking when u had J6 and u thought J high was good?

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I had to find the hand, I kept trying to watch the video and was unable to find it but it's just after 21mins for those who want to see it.

He checked through twice recently with TP and this time the flop comes down A54 and checks through and you can hear in my voice that I find this very strange, "There he goes again with a check through". Given the previous hands played and the momentum shift in his favor, his check through means he has air when I check again and he bets when a 2 hits. This means I have to dodge two cards in his range, a K or Q, my Jack high beats his wide range and I picked up a gut-shot, plus my pair outs could be good, so I say, "jack high could be good." (which means, my gutter, J or 6 on the river would be better) and I call.

[Joe Tall]

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I kind of figured you were doing that "turn the top card into a deuce" deal playing heads up. I just thought you were overdoing it

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DD peels a a lot of flops, yes. But I'm not sure if he thinks this way at all. He too experienced and balanced in his play.


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I don't think AJo is a standard 4 bet hand preflop at all, against the range Joe was 3 betting me with.


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I think you’re giving Joe too much credit. Here are the hands Joe was 3-betting you with pre-flop:

AA, KK, TT, 99, AK, AQo twice, AJo, A9o, A8o twice, A6s, KQo, QJ twice.

Again, I see the cards, but you can infer this from frequency and showdowns. Your AJ with position is solid against his range and should be capped. Joe might be tight, but he’s not a statue. He knows how to 3-bet against your range, and you should respond with a 4-bet. Let’s put it this way: If AJo isn’t worth a 4-bet against Joe’s 3-bet OOP, then Joe is not 3-betting enough. This is certainly not the case.

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His non-cap is fine. He doesnt have a huge hand vs my range, likely 50/50 with the actual range you have listed here. He maybe able to play a monster (like KK) the same way to keep me off balance further on, I also know that he is capable of that and he knows I know he is capable of that. This is not 1st-level-blackjack-poker where "AJo is always a cap."

ADDED: This also adds balance to his standard raise, as just calling could make 83s=AJo, that's huge.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
His non-cap is fine. He doesnt have a huge hand vs my range, likely 50/50 with the actual range you have listed here. He maybe able to play a monster (like KK) the same way to keep me off balance further on, I also know that he is capable of that and he knows I know he is capable of that. This is not 1st-level-blackjack-poker where "AJo is always a cap."

ADDED: This also adds balance to his standard raise, as just calling could make 83s=AJo, that's huge.

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Remember our discussion about the things we argue the most often mattering the least? I think this could be one of those times.

It's not as clear cut as DD vastly overestimating your flop check-raising range. I never quite understood why so many players think the opponent is playing like themselves. You guys are so different.

Congrats to the Red Sox by the way. I just wish the Rockies could make it somewhat entertaining.

Garland

[jessicaalbiel]

lol at the rake, nice vid though

[WillyT]

DeathDonkey,

What do you think of Joe's play?

Joe,

What do you think of DD's play? Also, did you tighten up a lot because of the huge rake at 2/4 or is this a decent representation of your HU game?

Cheers guys,

Bill