M2TR shortstacker illuminati thread

[oldschool]

Thremp dude you are sucha doushe man, seriously just read all your posts in this thread and youll see what i mean.

[illini43]

Shortstacking is fun...when you run good [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[SimaoMacaco]

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Thremp dude you are sucha doushe man, seriously just read all your posts in this thread and youll see what i mean.

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10000 posts - man they must have been quality - QFT - spread some love Thrush

[MyTurn2Raise]

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MT2R, will you continue the lessons?

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Is there really that much more to add?

We're talking about 1 or 2 decisions per hand here.

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MYT2R is missing a ton on the subject of shortstacking 6max games , i would say he has about 70% of it and theres like 30% he probably hasnt figured out(or hasnt laid out there in the open,not sure

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exactly, I don't pretend to know all
this is about all I know

I wish some more would share more

oh well

this is all I was able to learn from watching hand histories

[MyTurn2Raise]

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MT2R,

Do you use game theory in spots where you're shoving a wide range (BB vs SB or BN open)?
If you're pushing a really wide range, how do you determine when to shove? Do you just shove top x% with most equity vs his probable calling range?
When you're shoving >40% does it really matter wether you have Q4s or T9o?

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of course I adapt based on my opponents

this is what I get at with exploitive v equilibrium play

if your opponent will only call 5% in the BB, you're leaving money on the table by not pushing everything

yes...Q4s v T9o will matter based on whether your opponents are observant and adjust

[MyTurn2Raise]

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M2TR,

This is from a recent post in this forum. Is the BB a "good" or "bad" short stacker playing in the following hand, and why? Is his stack too deep? Is the min-raise bad for some reason? Is this an example of good or bad short stack play?

Full Tilt Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

SB ($32)
BB ($14.05)
UTG ($20.35)
UTG+1 ($18.55)
MP1 ($34.20)
MP2 ($24.75)
MP3 ($23.35)
CO ($24.65)
Hero ($20.35)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP3 calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, SB completes, BB raises to $1, UTG calls $0.75, MP1 calls $0.75, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls $0.75, SB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($5.50) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img](5 players)
SB checks, BB bets $5.5, ...

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>30 BBs is not a shortstack

[MyTurn2Raise]

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I have a few questions for the teacher:
1. What bankroll management should use a shortstacker? If he plays like 20 BB stacks on 8 tables, is 25x20=500 BB bankroll enough?

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I'd have much more than that....like 100 short buys so that one is never too worried

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2. Do you use PokerTracker/PAHUD when shortstacking? If yes, then what stats are displayed on the HUD?

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ummm...yeah...I pretty much know the regs stats by heart, but that doesn't matter since most regs adjust how they play v me. OBviously, VPIP/PFR, ATSB, FTBS, C=BET, FCBET, and so many others

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3. Does it work on lower levels where the preflop aggression is not as high? What is the lowest level do you tried this style and what were the results?

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of course it works....you just don't need to use near as many tools
the Ed Miller 2-street game will dominate the lower talent players

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+1. What does "cut range" and "but range" mean?

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cutoff
button

[DJSHAD0W]

MT2R, I am glad you returned to "your thread" - thought you might have been intimidated to not give out any more info when u stopped posting in this thread.

I have a few questions for you as well:

.) Started datamining on FTP some and there seem to be 3 regs at the highest levels: kinetica, gamblegambel and 40putts. Whats your opinion of kinetika and gamblegambel? Did you notice differences in their games?

.) Is it pretty standard for a Shortstacker to stack off with 1010 in raised pot on Q84r flop (1 overcard non coordinated flops) vs 24/20 type guys?
(say SS open raises from CO, BB calls)

.) I have noticed some of the 3 shortstackers mentioned check fold some flops. Are these just the pure blind steals with ATC or is there spots where the SS would c/f AK, AQ?
(The flops were not too coordinated IIRC)

.) This may not apply to the levels you play, but how do you handle AK, AQ in the blinds after 3 guys limped? (do you raise to 5-7BB trying to get HU and then push the flop? Do you push right away? Smaller Raise or vary the play?

.) Does the resteal lesson just apply to being in the BB and to a lesser extent the SB? (or do you use it on the button as well considering the blinds are yet to act behind you)...

Again thanks for all the information you have already shared, and hopefully we can keep this thread going.

[MyTurn2Raise]

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MT2R, I am glad you returned to "your thread" - thought you might have been intimidated to not give out any more info when u stopped posting in this thread.

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nah...just been out of town for awhile... a few people called me retarded or some such variant for giving away info for free, but no intimidation... i am trying to cut back on the internet groups, it's way too serious business (blame goes to myself here just as much as anyone)... sick of arguing sports stuff until I'm exasberated


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I have a few questions for you as well:

.) Started datamining on FTP some and there seem to be 3 regs at the highest levels: kinetica, gamblegambel and 40putts. Whats your opinion of kinetika and gamblegambel? Did you notice differences in their games?

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hrm...this is dangerous...yes, there are other ss'ers. Yes, there might be something to learn from all of them. However, many are 2p2 regulars and we should not have threads that break down a specific 2p2ers playing style, how it works, how to counter. If we keep it to generalities, we can say I saw a successful shortie opening up 2X on the button...why/why not? There are some differences between all shorties at the high stakes-they are not bots there. We could learn from all of them just as we can learn from successful fullies.

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.) Is it pretty standard for a Shortstacker to stack off with 1010 in raised pot on Q84r flop (1 overcard non coordinated flops) vs 24/20 type guys?
(say SS open raises from CO, BB calls)

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depends on the level, but yes
especially at higher stakes, the hands end up heads-up quite a bit and there is alot of aggression with lower hand values. The big blind in that hand could have paired any of the board, T9, JT, or just be acting with 'air' as it is a board that is likely to have missed the stealing range. I'd felt there with TT all the time as a shorty. This ties back to the lesson on how, sometimes, a 2 street game can be powerful. Run some pokerstove or whatever to see how the typical blind steal hand fits the Q84r flop. It's very common for one to just c/r with air verse what appears to be a missed c-bet.

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.) I have noticed some of the 3 shortstackers mentioned check fold some flops. Are these just the pure blind steals with ATC or is there spots where the SS would c/f AK, AQ?
(The flops were not too coordinated IIRC)

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hmmm....not sure
I wonder what the villains' stats were. I can see it more in multiway pots. OFten, it will just be a plain steal. However, the beauty of the shortstack is that you don't need to bet the flop to get your whole stack in by the river. It's a good idea to occassionally check your 'way ahead' made hands as well, such as AK on a k72r flop. Occassionally... Hell, i've tried just c-betting 80% of the time regardless of my hand (when the computer clock minute showed 0-7, it was a c-bet...8s and 9s were no c-bet). The differing results were minimal. However, I'm convinced that such a method isn't theoretically optimal. Right now, I mainly study postflop play by looking at various sources. I find lots of the MTT hands are best for relevant effective stack sizes, however there are differences in that there is less fold equity (players not afraid to bust like a MTT), more history verse villains, and less personal fear of busting (you can rebuy all the time as well).


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.) This may not apply to the levels you play, but how do you handle AK, AQ in the blinds after 3 guys limped? (do you raise to 5-7BB trying to get HU and then push the flop? Do you push right away? Smaller Raise or vary the play?

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Depends on the villains and level
if someone will call with a worse hand, or if it's a raise verse a pair, I'll just push. The dead money from everyone is enough to give the odds when racing.

The plan to raise enough preflop to set up a flop push is good against players that fold too much on the flop and/or players that will call the raises with dominated hands

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.) Does the resteal lesson just apply to being in the BB and to a lesser extent the SB? (or do you use it on the button as well considering the blinds are yet to act behind you)... [/qoute]
resteal applies everywhere

of course, the further you are from the bigblind, the more you have to tighten up as a player left to act might wake up with a monster or just want to gamble with you.
Honestly, the ranges are so tight verse most early position openers that it will only make a minimal difference. My general rule of thumb is to play just a little bit tighter if there are still players left to act. I suppose one could do the math and get even more specific.


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Again thanks for all the information you have already shared, and hopefully we can keep this thread going.

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agreed.....I really want to know what the other 30% of stuff is

[calmB4storm]

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For example, our effective stack is 20BBs. The initial raiser uses the 28.8% range for stealing and opens up 3BBs. If our previous play with the player makes us think he'll call with teh 19.8% range earlier, it's +ev to push 55+, A8s+, KJs+, A9o+, KJo+ (yes, I've done the math on all of these things).

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It all became a math equation since it became a one-street game.

let's put it all in terms of blinds

it works out to something like this:
f(R+1.5) + c(w((E+1.5)-1/20(2E+1.5))-l(E)) > 0
where
f = % of time initial raiser folds to push
c = % of time initial raiser calls push
R = Open raise size of initial raiser
w = win % of pushing hand v initial raiser's calling range
l = loss % of pushing hand v initial raiser's calling range

the solution is to simplify for w and find out what win pct your hand needs verse a villain calling range.


w > ( (c-1)(R+1.5)/c + E) / (19E/10 +57/40)

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Can someone show me how this math works out?

Using the numbers from MT2R's example, this is what I got...

c = .198/.288 = .6875
R = 3
E = 20

Therefore w > (.6875-1)*(3.5+1)/.6875 + 20)/(1.9*20+1.425)
And after simplifying I get w > 45.54%

That doesn't match up with MT2R's range of 55+, A8s+, KJs+, A9o+, KJo+, which corresponds to a win % of over 55%.

Anyone see where I'm going wrong?

Thanks!