Stop and Go with AK

[AceLuby]

Say they dofold:

If you have the best hand it's bad
If you have the worst hand it's good.
But how often are you going to have the worst hand
Against a PP (QQ-) about 50% of the time
Against anything else any where from 20-40% of the time

The stop and go is usually done w/ medium PP when you put your opponent on 2 overs (or the other way around) and you think a push PF will get called (no FE) and a push post flop there is a chance you take it uncontested. It is also usually done when you are the one that is short on chips.

The point here is that do you want to take this pot uncontested w/ a hand that fairs better after seeing 5 cards than 3 and the fact that they put 3/4 of their stack in. With AK there is no real reason to do a SNG, you have the best non pair hand and if they don't have a pair you are sitting really good. You should just put him in.

[seke2]

Every time someone posts a stop and go with 99+, AK, AQ, etc., the basic response is "Don't stop and go with good hands."

What makes this any different?

I think, on average, you lose more by doing the stop and go here because I think the other guy ONLY ever folds when you'd have taken the lead on the flop anyway, and all you let him do is get away on the incredibly rare occasion when his hand is so weak compared to the flop that there is basically 0 chance he's ahead. And you're not folding no matter what, obviously.

[Moose747]

My understanding of the stop and go is that it should be used any time that

1) you are too strong to fold
2) your only play is to commit all your chips
3) you're out of position
4) you have more fold equity after the flop than before

I think all these conditions hold.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have the best hand it's bad
If you have the worst hand it's good.
But how often are you going to have the worst hand
Against a PP (QQ-) about 50% of the time
Against anything else any where from 20-40% of the time

[/ QUOTE ] By your math, this is an incredibly +cEV move when the guys folds. Because we only lose 4k chips when he folds and we would have won, and we gain 27k chips when he folds and we would have lost.

[ QUOTE ]

The stop and go is usually done w/ medium PP when you put your opponent on 2 overs (or the other way around) and you think a push PF will get called (no FE) and a push post flop there is a chance you take it uncontested. It is also usually done when you are the one that is short on chips.

[/ QUOTE ] umm, who the [censored] cares when it's usually done. How is that even relevant here?

[ QUOTE ]

The point here is that do you want to take this pot uncontested w/ a hand that fares better after seeing 5 cards than 3

[/ QUOTE ] AK fares better when seeing 3 cards and the guy folds, then seeing 5 cards and the guy calls.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
all you let him do is get away on the incredibly rare occasion when his hand is so weak compared to the flop that there is basically 0 chance he's ahead

[/ QUOTE ] in a poor player's mind, holding 22, and the flop comes up QT6 and he is facing an all-in push that will make him the "bubble boy", he may think there is 0 chance that he is ahead. That is what we are trying to exploit.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Every time someone posts a stop and go with 99+, AK, AQ, etc., the basic response is "Don't stop and go with good hands."

What makes this any different?

I think, on average, you lose more by doing the stop and go here because I think the other guy ONLY ever folds when you'd have taken the lead on the flop anyway, and all you let him do is get away on the incredibly rare occasion when his hand is so weak compared to the flop that there is basically 0 chance he's ahead. And you're not folding no matter what, obviously.

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes this different is the amount of the flop bet is so tiny that you want villain to fold even though you have a strong hand. AK is also not that strong a hand. I wouldn't play this way with AA-QQ.

[AceLuby]

[ QUOTE ]
My understanding of the stop and go is that it should be used any time that

1) you are too strong to fold
2) your only play is to commit all your chips
3) you're out of position
4) you have more fold equity after the flop than before

I think all these conditions hold.

[/ QUOTE ]

1)true
2)commits all his chips, not yours
3)true
4)how much FE do you really have post flop that you don't have PF

This is such a dumb thread, I swear this is my last post.

[seke2]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
all you let him do is get away on the incredibly rare occasion when his hand is so weak compared to the flop that there is basically 0 chance he's ahead

[/ QUOTE ] in a poor player's mind, holding 22, and the flop comes up QT6, he may think there is 0 chance that he is ahead. That is what we are trying to exploit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fine, if you truly believe the other guy sucks that much, then do your stop and go.

In either case, like was said, the actual EV difference between pushing and stop and go here is incredibly small. Both cases, probably over 99.5% of the time, will have the same result. The equity difference in the other 0.5% (if it's even that high) of the time when the Villain folds the flop when it didn't actually help Hero, we're probably about 50/50 to win the hand anyway, since Villain's holding can't be strong enough that Hero isn't drawing to at least 6-10 outs if Villain called. So in those 2 cases out of 1000 where Villain folds when he's actually not in bad shape...sure, maybe there's a slight, tiny extra bit of equity in that.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
This is such a dumb thread, I swear this is my last post.

[/ QUOTE ] Somehow I doubt that.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
the actual EV difference between pushing and stop and go here is incredibly small.

[/ QUOTE ] Using the "average" cEV increase to determine whether this is a useful play is not appropriate, IMO. The average cEV may be one chip, because on average the villian is calling 99.5% of the time. But that one chip is not distributed evenly over all of your tournaments.

The most successful stop and go I ever did was with JTo in the BB, flop comes up Qxx, I push, guy folds. He was certainly ahead. He had me covered by 12000 chips. We were on the bubble. I was in a position where I couldn't fold. I didn't think he would fold, but he did. I ended up 2nd in the tournament, and won $2k.