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  #1  
Old 11-28-2007, 12:35 AM
Webster Webster is offline
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Default Does Villian have odds to call with pockets??

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Had a good night even with this hand. My question is - does UTG have odds to call this raise? Implied or otherwise? He IS going against a short stack but CO is in the hand Pre flop?

He has pocket 5's.



MP1 ($11.05)
MP2 ($4.30)
CO ($8.85)
Button ($9.50)
Hero ($2.10)
BB ($3.85)
UTG ($13)
UTG+1 ($5)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.10, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls $0.10, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $0.45</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls $0.30, CO calls $0.30.

Flop: ($1.35) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $1.7 (All-In)</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $3.4</font>, CO folds.

Turn: ($4.75) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: ($4.75) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $3.05
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  #2  
Old 11-28-2007, 06:54 AM
djshawk djshawk is offline
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Default Re: Does Villian have odds to call with pockets??

If he's just set mining then it's pretty close, but at NL10 he doesn't care about that.

I'd raise more preflop, but more important than that is having a full stack, what are you doing with just $2?
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:55 AM
djshawk djshawk is offline
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Default Re: Does Villian have odds to call with pockets??

Also bear in mind villian is actually ahead preflop and since you don't like cbetting you wont win this pot without spiking an A or K.
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Old 11-28-2007, 08:16 AM
Webster Webster is offline
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Default Re: Does Villian have odds to call with pockets??

djshawk - you forget about fold equity.

I'm running an experiment by playing nothing but short stack games. I have read in so many places that short stacks have an advantage over deep stacks that I have to see how MUCH of an advantage.

But they never say by how much.

SO - here we go. So far 7.98BB/100

your comment about being behind - actually it's even 55 vs. AKs but then there is fold equity and the fact that big stacks have to worry about OTHER big stacks and if more then one is in the hand the one ahead of me might be forced to fold.

I've read a LOT and done a ton of research into short stack play (sort of an obsession at the moment) and even though I prefer playing with a deep stack.

As for cbetting - different story short stacked - once I make a raise I'm on auto push on the flop. Does not matter WHAT flops - I'm pushing everything out.

Works pretty good so far :-)

I think you can call it Monkey poker LOL
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Old 11-28-2007, 08:57 AM
djshawk djshawk is offline
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Default Re: Does Villian have odds to call with pockets??

I kind of appreciate what you are saying, but it sounds a bit muddled.

You say if you raise preflop then you will auto push any flop, so why are you posting this hand? What do you want people to say? What are you trying to learn?

I also don't really understand your point about fold equity, where have you got FE? Preflop you make a small raise, on the flop you make a psb giving anybody who wants to call 2:1 with 2 cards to come. If you want to lever your FE then I think you need to push preflop.
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  #6  
Old 11-28-2007, 11:28 AM
Webster Webster is offline
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Default Re: Does Villian have odds to call with pockets??

[ QUOTE ]
What are you trying to learn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm trying to learn about the UTG play. Should he have called my raise with pocket 5's? In limit, no way! in NL? at first I was thinking no but now I'm thinking he had implied odds because of the other player in the hand.

If it was only two of us he stands to win a very little even IF he hits.

For fold equity - perhaps I'm using the term wrong - sorry.

What I was trying to say is that even if I do not hit my bet could fold people OR - if I hit and there are two other deep players in the hand the one that COULD beat me might fold because he does not want to tangle with the other deep player.

Also - at no time am I saying a deep stack will NOT win MORE then a short stack. A good deep player will crush bad or even average deep players but is at a disadvantage over short players.

Short players (when played correctly) will win on a very consistent basis, more limit like but with out the losses. Many small victories with a couple small losses.

My goal is to start small, get comfortable with NL and add to my stack as I become used to NL style play. AS my stack grows I add more hands to play.

I have found I have a "brain muscle memory" problem from 1 million limit hands (literally) and I go into limit mode and get in trouble. I'm being honest with myself.

Very good limit players (which I am) does not mean I'm a good NL player (which I'm not). It's like learning a second language and the first language keeps creeping in!
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  #7  
Old 11-28-2007, 03:23 PM
Niediam Niediam is offline
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Default Re: Does Villian have odds to call with pockets??

There have bee seveal threads about shortstacking winrates and if I remember correctly the general belief is that you can win about 1ptbb/100 against reasonable opponents.
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  #8  
Old 11-28-2007, 04:50 PM
djshawk djshawk is offline
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Default Re: Does Villian have odds to call with pockets??

I think UTGs call with 55 was fine, he just about had implied odds to set mine against you and it's likely the other guy was going to come along too. I think his mistake was limping preflop, he should probably either raise or fold. It's pretty close though and not hugely +/- EV.

Your analysis of the other players is interesting. At higher levels then you opponents will be paying attention to the stack sizes of who is left to act, but at NL10 this isn't going to happen. You just need to play really simple, straight forward poker.

Because you are a good limit player you are probably used to playing with people who are at least reasonable. When you are playing at NL10 you should assume that your opponent is a total donk, until you know otherwise.
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  #9  
Old 11-28-2007, 05:33 PM
Webster Webster is offline
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Default Re: Does Villian have odds to call with pockets??

What I have been noticing is that amount of cold calling raises. I always had one of HUD numbers tuned into CC% and anything above 1% I assumed the guy was a fish.

NL - I see 10% often and many 20% players

IN PT the average BB/100 is (-5.50bb/100) SOMEBODY is making money LOL

niediam - 1ptbb/100 against reasonable opponents? What the heck [ QUOTE ]
1ptbb/100

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyway - I have to think it is more then that if played optimally but we'll see. Could be right. At least I'll have a real answer . . . . . . at some point!
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  #10  
Old 11-29-2007, 05:10 AM
djshawk djshawk is offline
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Default Re: Does Villian have odds to call with pockets??

Yeah cold calling raises is fine, when you are in lp you can cold call loads of suited stuff if you know the raiser is the kind to stack off with a big pair regardless. Calling with pps to set mine is good to. If you are at a more aggressive table then 3 betting rather than calling can be good but this depends a lot on the early raiser.

In limit I always remember cold calling only ever being ok when the pot was multiway so you had your implied odds. In NL calling even HU is often fine, especially when you are both deeper than 100BB, and in position.

I think the more useful fish numbers in NL are went to showdown and won $ showdown. These give a good indication if the player only shows down the nuts or is happy to call to showdown with any old crap. Also useful is the river aggression and bet frequency, finding somebody who wont call a river value bet but will almost always bluff 1/2+ of the pot on the river when you check to them are gold. In limit you can get 1BB out of them, in NL by the river that 1/2 pot could easily be 15ptbb!
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