debate - Page 2

Munchkin Mayor · #11 10-11-2007, 03:48 PM

I know you are not asking about the other streets, but I can't help myself: First of all, the preflop raise is right. You are way ahead most of the time in this situation.

On the turn, I would four bet for value/information. Then the river is much easier to play.

The river sucks, obviously, cuz now we are beat by a king or an 8. But it is a scare card for him, too. So if he only has an 8 he might not bet...but if you bet, he still calls with his 8, either way you lose.

If he only has two pair, then he can't bet either so you lose one bet.

At this point, I want to get to showdown so I would c/c because I'm not very good a laying down hands!

chillrob · #12 10-11-2007, 04:11 PM

I don't really understand a river bet here; the river did not help hero. If hero thinks he is ahead, why didn't he reraise the turn? The combination of just calling on the turn and then betting the river only makes sense if he thinks he can get a better hand to fold, which I think is not likely. Even with the scare card, villian is likely to call with an 8 or a bigger set.

KitCloudkicker · #13 10-11-2007, 04:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really understand a river bet here; the river did not help hero. If hero thinks he is ahead, why didn't he reraise the turn? The combination of just calling on the turn and then betting the river only makes sense if he thinks he can get a better hand to fold, which I think is not likely. Even with the scare card, villian is likely to call with an 8 or a bigger set.

[/ QUOTE ]

hero may or may not be ahead on the turn, but its to avoid paying 2 extra bets on the turn to draw to a boat if villain has a straight.

the river bet is to prevent 2 pair from checking behind but is also a very easy fold if you get raised.

imo the only decision here is to b/f or to c/f. c/c is bad, and i only think we can c/f with a really solid read.

jba · #14 10-11-2007, 04:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really understand a river bet here; the river did not help hero. If hero thinks he is ahead, why didn't he reraise the turn? The combination of just calling on the turn and then betting the river only makes sense if he thinks he can get a better hand to fold, which I think is not likely. Even with the scare card, villian is likely to call with an 8 or a bigger set.

[/ QUOTE ]

this river makes villains value betting range much much smaller than a deuce would.

RudeboyOi · #15 10-11-2007, 04:26 PM

b/f is great here

we can easily have a K here
given our action on the previous streets

we are unlikely to get raised by an 8
and can still get value from a worse hand

Munchkin Mayor · #16 10-11-2007, 04:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
b/f is great here

we can easily have a K here
given our action on the previous streets

we are unlikely to get raised by an 8
and can still get value from a worse hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay.

chillrob · #17 10-11-2007, 05:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't really understand a river bet here; the river did not help hero. If hero thinks he is ahead, why didn't he reraise the turn? The combination of just calling on the turn and then betting the river only makes sense if he thinks he can get a better hand to fold, which I think is not likely. Even with the scare card, villian is likely to call with an 8 or a bigger set.

[/ QUOTE ]

this river makes villains value betting range much much smaller than a deuce would.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand this, but wouldn't it make his calling range smaller as well? I am not sure two pair is going to call this river.

private joker · #18 10-11-2007, 05:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet/folding is better than check/calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude,

Why the stop 'n' go? If we're leading the river, why aren't we 3-betting the turn? If we're calling the turn raise, why come to life on a horrible river card?

The Dude · #19 10-11-2007, 05:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Why the stop 'n' go? If we're leading the river, why aren't we 3-betting the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
The question in the OP had nothing to do with turn action. In fact, he specifically asked us to not comment on prior streets.

[ QUOTE ]
If we're calling the turn raise, why come to life on a horrible river card?

[/ QUOTE ]
There are a whole bunch of worse hands villain can have that will call a bet but check behind. It's perfectly reasonable for us to have a K in our hand, so it's unlikely we're going to get bluffed off the best hand.

Against most opponents, I think this is a check/fold situation. But the opponent is described as laggy, and it's entirely beside the point. The OP asked for a which-of-these-two-options-is-better reply. I gave him exactly that.

chillrob · #20 10-11-2007, 06:21 PM

I guess I was thinking along the lines of Private Joker, but I certainly can see the opposition's points as well.

I do think it is legitimate to ask why a river bet makes sense in relation to the turn action, even if we are not specifically criticizing the turn action.

Although I don't exactly like the options we are given or the way the hand has been played so far, I really don't like putting in another bet here and still maybe not even being able to see a showdown. If villain was bluff-raising (or being very aggressive with two pair), he might do the same on the river.