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#11
08-30-2007, 12:17 AM
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Re: It\'s supposed to be a check right?
I'm trying to see ways that this is anything but a check, and I really can't find another line I like. Too many outs to bet/fold the turn but unlikely to win unimproved if we bet/call. Villain isn't going to be just calling a turn bet with many hands that we beat except lower flush draws, and we stack those if we hit anyway.
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#12
08-30-2007, 12:18 AM
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Re: It\'s supposed to be a check right?
[ QUOTE ]
What hands are limp calling PF, and then c/c a slightly larger then pot bet on the flop with the board given? Seems like that Ace may have done more harm then good. It may have given us some showdown value (and an added gutter) but it also seemed to fill a ton of hands that we were against. All may I add, that are at the top of his range going in. Not convinced our hand is so 'huge'. [/ QUOTE ] this pretty much mirrors what i thought. we got ourselves in this spot with our awkward bet sizing. explaining to your friend the exact considerations on the turn would be more complicated and less immediately useful than explaining to her the basics behind preflop pot raising and stack/pot ratios in NLHE.
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#13
08-30-2007, 12:28 AM
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Re: It\'s supposed to be a check right?
I can think of a lot of reasons to check this turn. Most have been mentioned already.
There are only a few situations where I would bet here. If I thought I could actually get 2 streets of value out of a pair of aces, and villian isn't likely to c/r on the turn, I think a case could be made for betting. However, that seems like a really specific case that doesn't apply here.
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#14
08-30-2007, 12:34 AM
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Re: It\'s supposed to be a check right?
CAterp,
Very funny you say that. I wrote her a long post outlining everything from a street to street perspective on through the fundamentals of pot management and the manipulation of such. Absolutely this hand would play 100% differently if PF wasn't retarded and the flop wasn't overbet (though that play is a smaller mistake, I feel it was still a contributing factor in getting into this spot). She is a novice though and slack must be granted. And even still, imagine that the previous streets were played fine in terms of betsizing and starting stacks were just larger. We still do have to make a decision...
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#15
08-30-2007, 12:43 AM
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Re: It\'s supposed to be a check right?
I don't think this guy check shoves the turn ever with anything less than JQ - and even there he may well just slowplay or do something stupid like check min raise. Checking is obviously best against a decent player - but this is a $200 live player. I make a goofy $40 value bet, setting the pot nicely for river extraction if desired.
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#16
08-30-2007, 12:45 AM
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Re: It\'s supposed to be a check right?
[ QUOTE ]
CAterp, Very funny you say that. I wrote her a long post outlining everything from a street to street perspective on through the fundamentals of pot management and the manipulation of such. Absolutely this hand would play 100% differently if PF wasn't retarded and the flop wasn't overbet (though that play is a smaller mistake, I feel it was still a contributing factor in getting into this spot). She is a novice though and slack must be granted. And even still, imagine that the previous streets were played fine in terms of betsizing and starting stacks were just larger. We still do have to make a decision... [/ QUOTE ] right. and i think that everything that you said about our hand not being huge but having a moderate amount of showdown value (especially if turn is checked and river bricks) that we love to check the turn and call a river brick or bet (or shove) a flush or straightening card. with different stack/pot ratios betting becomes more attractive but given exactly where we are and how we got there (your handreading summary comes to mind) checking seems ideal
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#19
08-30-2007, 07:53 PM
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Re: It\'s supposed to be a check right?
If anyone is interested it was a funny (and by funny I mean, I need to school her on the fundamentals of poker) ending.
($80) Board reads Ks 6s Th Ad. MP checks, she bets $40, he raises to $115, she calls. ($310) River is blank, MP goes all in for ~$80, she folds. If you could ever make a mistake on every part of the hand, this is it. Please use this as an example on how not too play. The funniest part is her under betting the preflop, overbetting the flop, underbetting the turn, and folding the river to a 25% bet......oh to be a n00b [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] edit- I am fully in the check turn camp by the way.
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#20
08-31-2007, 11:31 AM
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Re: It\'s supposed to be a check right?
The turn/river are fine. Like expected from a $200 live player he made a horrible sized check raise (which he never makes with worse) giving her acceptable odds to draw out. She misses so she folds which is fine - she's never ahead on the river. Doesn't matter if she's getting 10;1 or 1:1.
I also believe underbetting the turn is best, or at least better than making a real bet on the turn - which is worst by far. Live players are pretty bad, but I think even a horrible player can get away from a mediocre king if she bets significantly on the turn - while they're rarely tossing second pair for just another half pot bet.
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