10/20 welcome back jloc....

[jlocdog]

10/20 limit O8 on stars (7 handed).

I haven't been playing O8 for a bit so I felt extremely rusty. Everyone at table seems a bit spewy. UTG seems way too loose all around and HJ the same though seemed to have a bit more controlled aggression postflop. I am most likely the tightest player but not sure if it is recognized enough to have any impact. You never know though....

Stacks are about $600 or so, but I am not sure if that matters (so used to NL).

UTG limps, HJ limps and I make it $20 with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] from the CO. BT calls, both blinds call as do limpers.

6 to the flop ($120) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Checks to me and I bet $10. Everyone but SB calls.

5 to the turn ($170) 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Checked to HJ who bets out $20. I raise to $40. UTG calls as does HJ.

3 to the river ($290) A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Both check to me and I bet $20.

Please critique/criticize every street. I will give my thoughts on my motives as discussion progresses.

edit- for me being posting wrong blind amount

[neverforgetlol]

(you don't have to say how much you bet, it's fixed)

I think the river bet is descent because it probably just counterfeited someone.

[Rush17]

Not particularly crazy about your play on the flop vs. loose, spewy opponents because you're almost always going to get called in that spot. I'd take the free card here if button allowed it.

And again, I'm not crazy about the turn raise either. If you had a really good draw at the high along with your good low draw (ie; nut flush draw/nut low draw, or, if you had an uncounterfeitable draw to the low)fine. But, this way, you might actually fold off the blinds and I think this is more of a pull situation than it was a push situation.

Keep in mind, that, on the turn, there was a new player that decided to take the initiative, and when that happens, it usually means that they either flopped a monster(and were trying to be tricky) Or, they've just picked up a monster draw on the turn and they want to make sure that chips go into the pot. And, for that reason alone, I want to just call, and I welcome all others to join me. Lots of callers works best when you're (basically) drawing for the low. The more players in the pot, the better chance you have to earn money with your lows. And of course, if you happen to hit a high hand as well as completing your low, then you can go ahead and push the envelope more.

Bet the river. Anyone acting before you would've fired out a bet with the nut low (especially seeing that they would've come a long way to get there).

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
5 to the turn ($170) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Checked to HJ who bets out $20. I raise to $40.

[/ QUOTE ]jlocdog - Wow! You would be one tough opponent to read. At this point in the hand, I guess I'd put you on some fragment of A245 with clubs. (And you do have part of that, but it's rather thin without the nut club draw, and even thinner without any club draw).

Do you try to put your opponents on cards? If so, what two-card combinations do you think someone continuing (check/calling) after the flop holds?

Then what two-card combinations do you think HJ is likely to hold when he bets the turn? (I could tell you what I think, but I'm interested in what you think).

And why does CO call a double bet on the turn? In other words, what draws is CO likely to be playing to call a double bet on the turn? (I'm interested in what you hope to achieve with the double bet on the turn).

How likely are these guys to fold to your river bet, considering that the ace of clubs appears on the river? (Now you obviously didn't have the nut club draw on the turn).

At any rate, welcome back to this forum. Looks like you haven't posted here for several months.

Buzz

[jlocdog]

Buzz,

Yeah, I haven't been playing too much O8 lately (as you can plainly tell). I have still lurked a bit but even that has gone down drastically. I find I spend time in the forums I am most active in at that time. Anyways, thanks for the welcome....

As for the hand, I felt it was all played very poorly. I didn't like any street.

PF: This hand seems a bit weak to be raising but with my perceived image I felt I might get respect and credit for a stronger hand (AAxx,AK23..). I was attempting to fold out some poor A2xx holdiings as well as other 'decent' hands that I am probably only a slight favorite against.

As well I wanted to get the BN and blinds to fold so I would have position. I was hoping that making them face 2 bets as well as me showing strength by raising into a field like that would deter them from coming along, allowing me to play this hand 3 way w/ position. My hand (seemed at the time anyways) like it was perfect for a 3 way pot. I had enough strength to properly assume it was best and enough draws to feel safe with it 3 way in order to get paid if/when they hit.

Lastly, I was trying to exploit their images of being fairly loose preflop and giving them the opportunity of getting more money in the pot bad, OOP. A good combo for me. Where I may be wrong though is that my hand may not rate that much higher then their typical limp call range to make this that much of a mistake. If not, it can't be too far off. My hand still does have strength after all (Ace high FD, AQ combo, 3 to a wheel...).

Flop: Once it was checked to me, I felt almost obligated to bet on this flop. It was good for my hand in a few ways. First, it was very dry. Besides for the FD (which I can easily fold to a club hitting) it offered only a 1 card low and a SD in no mans land (7-Q area). Since I was representing AAxx with a lot of my range, I felt I could very easily minimize the field and possibly scoop on a blank turn (we will talk about that idea in a moment but at the time of the flop this was my thinking).

Second of all, this flop gave me some nice looking backdoor outs that would allow me to continue with the hand on the turn if I hit. They just so happen to coordinate with what I felt would be blank cards on the turn which only strengthens my hand while weakening theirs. 2,4,T,K were these key cards with some others not fully doing justice but maybe sufficing. If the BN would have folded preflop, I almost always would have checked this flop because of that reason. Since he didn't, I felt I would justify my bet with more of the first reason now.

Turn: This is where I felt my biggest mistake was. Still not sure though. Now my hand was not very strong but still had a shed of light on being able to atleast split the pot if the right card came off on the river. When the HJ bet, I raised so it would make it extremely difficult for the rest of the field to come along. Since the bettor was on my immediate right I would be making everybody face 2 bets with the possibility of the action reopening. A glorified squeeze if you will. Now this may make them fold their low draw which would allow me to get 1/2 pot instead of 1/4. This may be far fetched but it was my thinking at the time. The thinking went, they may feel their investment is now too steep for the possibility of getting quartered because of this squeeze. I do realize the pot was laying them nice odds but if HJ repops the bet then they just lost their ROI. If anyone but the HJ bet the turn I would have just called.

When the first limper coldcalled 2 bets I put him squarely on the nut FD (atleast at the top of his range). Ofcourse he could have other stuff but with him never taking the lead and him being kinda bad that was his most likely holding. Maybe ha had a weaker low draw then me (again I figure him to take the lead or repop with a combo nutter?). The HJ could very well have hit a set of 66 or already have a set and waited till the big bet street came out before coming alive. Once he doesn't reraise though, I was seriously a bit confused on his hand. It couldn't have been a lock high or he would have jammed the pot I figured.

My big mistake here is that I don't hold the Ac. This allowed one of my opponents to have the Ac along withe a 2 and another club giving them a very strong hand and making it impossible for me to fold them out. Infact, I would just be playing into their hands now. Doh! One thing to add though. When playing against bad opponents, sure it is profitable but it is also MUCH harder to put them on anything. They seem to be all over the place.

River: Once the river hit I was thoroughly confused. Wasn't that card supposed to be in someones hand? And then they checked it to me? WTF! My bet was made because I figured it would be ridiculously odd for one of them to show up with a 24xx hand at this point and so I figured my 25xx was good for atleast 1/2 the pot. If the bet makes a better high hand fold I would have been greatly suprised but with these monkeys I guess I should be passed being suprised by anything.

Anyways that was my thought process throughout the hand. Please tell me where I had faulty reasoning and bad judgement. The hand didn't feel right and I'm sure there were mistakes. If not in the actual line then atleast in the reasoning and motives behind it.

[jlocdog]

Rush,

Just wanted to say good analysis. I appreciate when someone spends the time make a nice post concerning their thoughts on all streets. My thought process is in my post above. Still wondering if I want players to pay off my low or if trying to fold them is better in this spot to gain more equity if I hit.

[Rush17]

Hi,

I would want the call(s) on the turn. I don't want to shut anyone out. And, if someone did have the nut low draw, they're not going to fold on the turn just because you tried to make it expensive. Thing is, if they were willing to call the flop (whether they were drawing to something or just got stubborn and decided to peel a card looking for another low card) then they are certainly not going to fold now. And this goes back to what Buzz was asking you(which, he was spot on with).

Now, if I had a much better 2-way draw on the turn, then I would've raised(for value) for certain. And, I know that you did have a gutshot to go with your low draw, but seeing that the board did contain a flush draw, I'd have to say that it just wasn't a strong enough draw for you to press. Not to mention that your position was also unfavorable, too.

If my position was better...say the player bets the turn, a few people overcall, then it gets to me...well, then I'd probably go ahead and get a raise in because all those players already put bets into the pot. But, that said, I'd still want to have at least 4 players in the hand if I'm going to start thinking about jammin' up the pot a little bit.

I also don't want to shut out any 2nd nut drawing hands either (ie; A3xx hands...weak flush draws...bad straight draws etc.) because all of those holdings will help to pad our side of the pot at the river for the times when we do hit the nut low.

And, the way this hand played out, it really didn't look like you were just going to be able to buy it at the river if you totally missed everything. I don't know if that was part of the plan on thr flop/turn, but it didn't look promising from my view of it.

I'm glad you bet the river. Most of the time, players don't seem to checkraise very much on this street because A)they don't want to miss out on getting in that last bet and B) sometimes they're just so "happy" that they got there, that they just fire out a bet and forget to think if perhaps, a checkraise may have been the better play.

[Buzz]

jlocdog – Your pre-flop reasoning makes sense to me. You have quite a nice starting hand, probably the best currently at the table. For the pre-flop raise, I’d tentatively put you on the range of hands that your hand actually fits, as would many of my typical opponents. And then we’d probably look for ways to best exploit that read. However, you seem to feel that these particular opponents would not do that, and if so, then you might as well go ahead and get more money into the pot.

[ QUOTE ]
My hand (seemed at the time anyways) like it was perfect for a 3 way pot. I had enough strength to properly assume it was best and enough draws to feel safe with it 3 way in order to get paid if/when they hit.

[/ QUOTE ]Interesting. With your starting hand, I’d want as many opponents as possible, except for another ace-deuce, of course.

But you can’t have it both ways. They can’t be too stupid to read you for some of the very cards you hold and at the same time be intelligent enough to fold a bad A-2-X-Y.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: Once it was checked to me, I felt almost obligated to bet on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]Since you raised pre-flop, they might tend to “check to the raiser.” [ QUOTE ]
It was good for my hand in a few ways.

[/ QUOTE ]??? You missed a fit with the flop! You have a back-door low draw and a back-door flush draw. That does not qualify as a flop fit, in my humble opinion. However, it is possible that nobody else has a flop fit with this particular flop either. Against tight enough opponents a bet might steal the pot.

[ QUOTE ]
this flop gave me some nice looking backdoor outs that would allow me to continue with the hand on the turn if I hit.

[/ QUOTE ]An out is a single card that will make your hand. Thus to my way of thinking, there is no such thing as a “backdoor out.” You do have two back-door draws. And if you catch a favorable card on the turn for one or both of your back-door draws, then you will have some outs on the river. I’ve read some books where the author estimated that a back-door flush draw is worth two outs. I disagree with that. I think a back-door nut flush draw is worth one out. And that is all it is worth, in my opinion. (I think I can back that up with solid reasoning, but that’s off the subject). (The value of back-door low draws varies somewhat with the exact cards involved).

You did gain position with your raise. That would matter more in Texas hold ‘em or pot-limit Omaha or pot-limit Omaha-8 than it does here.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: This is where I felt my biggest mistake was.

[/ QUOTE ]I think so too. [ QUOTE ]
… able to at least split the pot if the right card came off on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]True.

[ QUOTE ]
When the HJ bet, I raised so it would make it extremely difficult for the rest of the field to come along.

[/ QUOTE ]At this point you have zilch for high plus the nut low draw with some secondary counterfeit protection. I don’t see you knocking out another ace-deuce, but you might knock out a deuce-four or another deuce-five. And that would benefit you 3/44 times when the river was an ace, but not the 4/44 times the river was a four, or the 3/44 times the river was a five, or the 4/44 times the river was a seven, or the 4/44 times the river was an eight. (And you could go through similar reasoning for possible knocking out an ace-four or an ace-five).

[ QUOTE ]
A glorified squeeze if you will.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. You did squeeze them with your semi-bluff. And you did make it more difficult for them to play and thus more likely to make a mistake in judgment. As I wrote in my previous post in this thread, you would be a tough opponent for me to face. Aggressive play is very good.

It’s hard to look at one hand in isolation. The way you have been playing affects the way your opponents will react to you. However, in my humble opinion, you’re too aggressive on the turn here.

[ QUOTE ]
When the first limper coldcalled 2 bets I put him squarely on the nut FD

[/ QUOTE ]Reasonable.

[ QUOTE ]
Once … doesn't reraise … I was seriously a bit confused on his hand. It couldn't have been a lock high or he would have jammed the pot I figured.

[/ QUOTE ]Reasonable.

[ QUOTE ]
My big mistake here is that I don't hold the Ac.

[/ QUOTE ]No. your big mistake is that you raised without it.

[ QUOTE ]
When playing against bad opponents, sure it is profitable but it is also MUCH harder to put them on anything. They seem to be all over the place.

[/ QUOTE ]I agree.

[ QUOTE ]
River: Once the river hit I was thoroughly confused. Wasn't that card supposed to be in someone’s hand?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. From the perspective of an opponent without it, it was supposed to be in your hand.

[ QUOTE ]
And then they checked it to me? WTF! My bet was made because I figured it would be ridiculously odd for one of them to show up with a 24xx hand at this point and so I figured my 25xx was good for at least 1/2 the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]Reasonable. And it’s true that you might knock out a weak two-pair hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyways that was my thought process throughout the hand. Please tell me where I had faulty reasoning and bad judgment.

[/ QUOTE ]See above. I think mostly the raise on the turn was too aggressive. But overall, I think you should be trying to envision the possible card combinations your opponents might be holding to play as they played. And it doesn’t seem to me you’re doing that.

If you watch WSP Texas hold ‘em games on TV, you’ll often see one of the players put an opponent on the exact two cards the opponent actually has. Perfect reads.

It’s much harder to do that in Omaha-8, but I think you can sometimes pinpoint two-card combinations of your opponents, and maybe even three-card combinations. As I read your explanation of your thinking, it didn’t quite feel to me as though you were doing that. (But maybe you just didn’t express it).

Sometimes a strong Texas hold ‘em player who has been playing Texas hold ‘em will switch to my Omaha-8 table. The tendency of such a player will often be to play too aggressively. It’s tough to play against such a player, but at the same time generally profitable. And that’s what your play in this hand seemed like to me.

I like your bet on the river, but it’s much more likely to succeed if you have not played the pre-flop and turn over-aggressively.

And your bet on this flop is also more likely to be successful if you haven’t raised before the flop. (Don’t misunderstand - I’m not saying don’t raise before the flop, and I’m not saying don’t bet this flop – just that together it’s somehow a bit too much to be very effective).

Buzz

[jlocdog]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes a strong Texas hold ‘em player who has been playing Texas hold ‘em will switch to my Omaha-8 table. The tendency of such a player will often be to play too aggressively. It’s tough to play against such a player, but at the same time generally profitable. And that’s what your play in this hand seemed like to me.

I like your bet on the river, but it’s much more likely to succeed if you have not played the pre-flop and turn over-aggressively.

And your bet on this flop is also more likely to be successful if you haven’t raised before the flop. (Don’t misunderstand - I’m not saying don’t raise before the flop, and I’m not saying don’t bet this flop – just that together it’s somehow a bit too much to be very effective).

[/ QUOTE ]

This pretty much summed up my whole session. I have been away from O8 for a bit now and I never felt comfortable throughout the session (though I did win [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]). I t was a bizarre feeling of knowing the game and yet, having that false sense of security. Like it should be routine or 'standard', some of the situations I got myself in. This hand being a perfect example of. I agree both you and Rush have made excellent points.

I guess I am just still caught up on the fact that the Ac is SUPPOSED to be in myhand. And given preflop and flop action, I should have the NFD along with my nut low draw with probable redraws. So my raise was one in which I would make if I did hold the Ac. Is that bad? Maybe this is just me trying to have it both ways with an unpredictable opponent though....Also, I liked my river bet the best out of the whole hand.

I do find it amusing that raising PF is fine but betting this flop is not AND calling pf is fine and then betting this flop would be good.... and I missed out on both.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I am just still caught up on the fact that the Ac is SUPPOSED to be in my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]jlocdog - No. But an opponent without the ace of clubs should expect that you might have it if you have been playing a solid game up to this point. However, if you have been betting without actually having what your bet should represent (to someone trying to logically read you hand) for a while, then it's hard to read you for anything except another possible attempted bluff.

[ QUOTE ]
And given preflop and flop action, I should have the NFD along with my nut low draw with probable redraws.

[/ QUOTE ]Not exactly. If you had been betting logically all session, then your flop bet along with your pre-flop raise might represent A-2-W-X-with-the-nut-club-draw. If you've been betting all session the way you bet this hand, your bet represents an attempt to steal the pot.

[ QUOTE ]
So my raise was one in which I would make if I did hold the Ac.

[/ QUOTE ]Not necessarily. As a bluff, your raise would be more successful if you actually held the ace of clubs. With the nut club flush (the ace of clubs plus another club) your turn raise would be logical. There are also probably some other hands you could hold and logically raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Is that bad?

[/ QUOTE ]"Bad" is the wrong word. I'm not sure there is a single word for your play here.

I like selectively aggressive play. I think you want to use a deft touch in applying that selectively aggressive play. Betting or raising at every opportunity is not what I would call a deft touch.

But it's tough for your opponents to take a hammering like that.

You played the hand exactly like a "maniac" would play the hand. (I don't mean that as an insult - but "maniac" is what someone using that style of play is called). The advantage in playing hands using the maniac style is in getting paid off on other hands where you actually have what your bets represent. And against weak/timid opponents you probably will be successful in many steals.

[ QUOTE ]
I liked my river bet the best out of the whole hand.

[/ QUOTE ]I like it too. I like it even better without all the other betting and raising that preceded it.

[ QUOTE ]
I do find it amusing that raising PF is fine but betting this flop is not AND calling pf is fine and then betting this flop would be good.... and I missed out on both.

[/ QUOTE ]That's not exactly what I meant. In my humble opinion, betting this lack of flop fit after everybody in front of you checked would have been better if you had not raised before the flop.

After you raise pre-flop, your flop bet is probably more or less expected by some of your opponents. You can't necessarily read their checks as lacking a better flop fit than you.

Your pre-flop raise coupled with a bet on the flop would be fine for various other flops, but the very reason you're posting is you evidently sense you missed the mark.

I'm always trying to put my opponents on cards. If I bet this hand the way you did, I wouldn't get much of a read on their hands. So playing like a maniac in a limit Omaha-8 game, except very occasionally, would not fit well with my playing style.

Doing it too much doesn't work well for me. But if you can make it work for you, then go for it.

Buzz