Fold TP Ace on 4th Broadway River To Donk?

gaming_mouse · #1 07-31-2007, 11:47 AM

Only been playing 15 minutes, villain seemed normal.

Full Tilt Poker $30/$60 Limit Hold'em - 6 players
Hand Converter Tool from DeucesCracked.com

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, Hero raises, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (5.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero ???

gaming_mouse · #2 07-31-2007, 11:52 AM

How about this one? More or less inclined to fold?

Full Tilt Poker $30/$60 Limit Hold'em - 6 players
Hand Converter Tool from DeucesCracked.com

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, Hero raises, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (5.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero ???

Scary_Tiger · #3 07-31-2007, 11:54 AM

Call and call. If you have to fold one of them, fold the first one.

admiralfluff · #4 07-31-2007, 01:17 PM

Against an unknown I would never consider folding either of these.

gaming_mouse · #5 07-31-2007, 04:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Against an unknown I would never consider folding either of these.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I guess this is standard. I called both but felt like a total donk after losing.

PartyGirlUK · #6 07-31-2007, 04:22 PM

Hand 1 wouldnt be a terrible fold, hand 2 v v v clear call.

emerson · #7 07-31-2007, 04:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How about this one? More or less inclined to fold?

Full Tilt Poker $30/$60 Limit Hold'em - 6 players
Hand Converter Tool from DeucesCracked.com

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, Hero raises, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (5.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero ???

[/ QUOTE ]

What else can you do but call? He playes this passive check/call, check/call line when you have top pair, and then donks the river. He is getting 5:1 to bluff here. If you're going to lay down top pair very often he has a very powerful weapon. He only has to get you to lay down about 17%.

Even though you are probably lost I think it is important, metagame wise, to call here most of the time. Otherwise you are setting yourself up.

mute · #8 07-31-2007, 05:35 PM

Not exactly the same hand, but seems close. I said call back then, but think it might be a leak.

Link

emerson · #9 07-31-2007, 05:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not exactly the same hand, but seems close. I said call back then, but think it might be a leak.

Link

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on your opponents. More players are learning that taking pot shots at scary looking boards when heads up is very profitable. And the river donk is a really cheap way to try it when that flush or straight card hits.

After reading the thread to which you linked, I think I'm going to start making more river donk bluffs when the river card is something that should look scary to top pair. It seems that lots of good players will lay down here way more frequently than is needed for the bluff to be profitable.

Now in the first hand above it would help to know what the BB calling range is because we do lose to almost anything. If he has any pocket pair TT or higher, or holds any two broadways, or simply any jack, we're beat. If that makes up more than 84% of his possible holdings we couldn't call even if he would bluff 100% of the time here. We still wouldn't win often enough for the call to be profitable.

If we have a figure on how often this guy folds his BB to a possible steal then we could figure a possible range.

admiralfluff · #10 07-31-2007, 07:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Ok, I guess this is standard. I called both but felt like a total donk after losing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would also expect to lose both the majority of the time.