A river fold and a river call: Should they be switched?

gaming_mouse · #1 06-09-2007, 06:32 AM

My notes on villain say he cd a river c/r with bottom pair and made other light calldowns.

Full Tilt Poker $30/$60 Limit Hold'em - 4 players
Converted by DeucesCracked.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
CO folds, Button raises, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero c/raises here sometimes but this time decides to call.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (8 players)
Hero checks, Button bets (after waiting a long time), Hero calls.

River: (5.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (8 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 5.25 BB

Hand 2

This villain just sat.

Full Tilt Poker $30/$60 Limit Hold'em - 5 players
Converted by DeucesCracked.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB raises, Hero raises, SB calls.

Flop: (6.00 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Turn: (4.00 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB bets, (ugh, he might donking a fd, gotta call), Hero calls.

River: (6.00 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB bets, (omg that has to be value bet I hate myself for calling) Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.00 BB

PaulWilmot · #2 06-09-2007, 07:39 AM

They should not be switched just altered to call call

Hand 1

You decided for calldown mode from the flop on. Stick to your plan. Turn is a 7 (good), any river card hurts your 22 (im asuming button is pretty liberal) so just close your eyes and call.
of course Jx is within his range but on the other hand jack is just some random card he was gonna fire again anyway.

Hand 2

Raise flop in order to avoid "overcard on turn scenario"
(obv you cant raise now either hes gonna fold [he has air] or he has you beat or he has lo-mid pp 44-99 comes to mind small percentage of time)
calldown this 100% of the time

bugstud · #3 06-09-2007, 08:18 AM

I don't like hand 1 but dunno where to really change it except folding the flop I guess?

hand 2 is weird I'm awfully tempted to raise somewhere because I'm having a hard time putting him on much hand.

sharpie · #4 06-09-2007, 08:32 AM

Hand 1 if you call the flop I think you gotta call the river against this guy. If he's bluff check/raising low pair on the river he looks like the type who would have no qualms 3 barreling on this board. Edit: Just noticed he called a river c/r with bottom pair, didn't c/r himself. I've got no idea now.

Hand 2 perfect. This is so often a flush draw on the turn, but no point in raising as he'll bluff the river. I would calldown ace high no diamond here.

Nate tha\\\' Great · #5 06-09-2007, 10:52 AM

#1 is so dependent on past history and your table image at the time. If you pokerstove it out your equity isn't bad (like 43%) but if he has like KT then I think he tells himself that you have hearts or 65 and that his hand has showdown value and checks it through; when you do see a bet there it tends to be with some total junk like 98. So his steal range is also important; if he gets frisky with hands without showdown value then that certainly pushes it to a call. BTW, I don't think that the fact that he called down a river c/r with bottom pair is particularly interesting, usually an opponents range when check-raising the river is {2 pair+, air} so if you have something that's strong enough to beat a bluff then you can consider calling. I mean, I've called river check-raises with K-high before and won.

Hand 2 I calldown without thinking and I don't think that's a leak.

ssmallz · #6 06-09-2007, 04:13 PM

I really dislike the way you played hand 1 against this particular opponent. You have a note that says he called down light so why are you trying to push him off his hand? His bad play in general will lead to more correct decisions in this situation b/c he is correct to call your c/r and following bets from a FToP standpoint. W/a hand like 22, I like to play it aggro only if I have some folding equity. Against this particular opponent I don't know if this is true so I just c/f the flop and find a better place to play

hand 2: Reads help a lot here but I think this is a pretty clear call. His turn donk can easily be the Ad who just picked up a flush draw and gutterball. He could also have a made hand or K. Another way to play this hand might be to raise the turn for a free showdown. You might get a fold out of some hands w/a few outs and if he's on a draw you charge him the max. Against a standard opponent, I just let him bet the turn and river so that I can see a showdown for 2 bb's