Interesting Grants and Loans situation

[SoloAJ]

I should make note...Here at ISU, getting an English Education BA and getting certified if you already have an English BA is identical. (other than a slip of paper-the 2nd BA).

I actually won't be in the College of Education. I would still be in the CoFA or whatever English is in. My major is still more aligned with English than it is with Education or the CoE. I just have to take C&I classes is all.

I really need to decide on this somewhat soon. I'm going to see the advisor at 3 and he can switch me to English Ed if I want, effectively blocking my degree and giving me funding.

But I really want to have that English BA just because that would make me more marketable right? "Hi, I have an English BA AND an English Ed BA." Basically shows I'm more educated in English that most English Ed people. Blah.

Is it worth $10,000? Probably not. I hate this decision.

[The Bandit Fish]

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Is it worth $10,000? Probably not. I hate this decision.

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More degrees is always a good thing. Honestly, $10k is nothing once you secure that job. Do whatever will make your more attractive to a potential employer, period.

As someone said before, if a school is going to pass on you because you have a Masters and would start out at a few thousand more per year, you don't want to be at the school. It tells me they're willing to settle for anything less than the best and I can't think that would be an environment I would want to work in.

The idea that a school would pass up on someone who may be more qualified, boggles my mind. I know while I was goign to school in western NY the districts would pay for the teacher to get their masters. I had a few teachers who had PHD's that the districts paid for. Of course now NY requires a Masters to teach, so I wouldn't try there until you have your Masters (they do pay well though!).

As you can tell by my posts, I'm not an English Major. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[SoloAJ]

Haha, thanks for the input Bandit Fish.

Seriously, I don't know how much it would matter in the real world, but having that 2nd degree could theoretically land me a position someday I wouldn't otherwise get (in theory).

And I will try to briefly explain my very little knowledge of how Illinois works.

Basically just about nowhere (except maybe rich chicago burbs) will hire someone with 0 experience and a masters. The pay increase is way too much for stingy schools. That said, schools will generally pay for like 3-6 credit hours per semester for an employed teacher to work on their Masters. So basically they're paying for your schooling, and as you get more credit hours/Masters, etc. you get raises in the pay scale. Additionally, you get pay raises every..4? years of small amounts.

So basically they want to lock you in when you have only a BA and no experience. Let you get experience as you get schooling, and then they can pay you accordingly.

I guess that is just the way it works here. If every person that wanted to become a HS English teacher suddenly all came out with Masters, the people with no masters would get the jobs easily...at least that's the impression I have gotten from both my school advisor and my step-mom who is currently a teacher.


Long story short, I'm seriously wondering if it is worth the gamble. Like TBF said, $10,000 in additional student loans would be close to invisible if I had a salary job as a teacher (30-35k est. for the area I want starting).

And let's not forget that I'm single, which makes it easier. No kids means more money saved.

Additional thoughts?

[SoloAJ]

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As someone said before, if a school is going to pass on you because you have a Masters and would start out at a few thousand more per year, you don't want to be at the school. It tells me they're willing to settle for anything less than the best and I can't think that would be an environment I would want to work in.

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This is moreso that they can hire someone with equal field experience for less money. Sure they would like a more educated person, but they can't rely on you to be a better teacher just because you have more education...? I guess that is the idea.

[MrMon]

I think you may need to look at this in a slightly different way. The real key is, what is the salary difference between someone with a bachelors and a masters? It can be quite substantial, I've often seen numbers in the $7-10k range, though I'm sure there are variables by district, etc. Let's say it takes you roughly the same time to get the two bachelor's vs. the bachelor's plus teacher cert just short of a masters. You will start at the same salary this way. The difference is, you lose grant money (and some should available at the grad level), and have to switch to loans. You can get nearly 20k per year at the grad level, but you don't necessarily need to take all that. In Missouri, if you become a teacher at a public school, you repay the loan at an interest rate of 0.75% per year, I suspect Illinois may have a similar program. So just figure you need to repay whatever it costs to go to school, vs. no repayment. Let's say it costs $20k in loans to go the just short of masters route vs. a free two bachelors route. How many years will it take you to get the masters, with increased pay, with the school paying the cost, i.e. for free?

So let's say you get the masters after 1 year vs. 4 years. That's three extra years at the higher rate. Does that cover the cost of the loans? That's the breakeven point. Adjust according to how much it will cost in loans, the time difference in degrees, and the salary difference. And you need to see if you'll be at the same salary level after you have masters in both options - e.g. will you earn more with 4 years experience, 3 at masters, vs. 4 years experience, new masters. A lot of variables, but that's how you have to approach it.

A couple of other things to think about. If you get your degree now, you might be able to get into some sort of accelerated program that will start this summer and get you teaching by Fall '08. That could make a big difference, and it may be possible in a master's program vs. two bachelor's. Two, why not go for those suburban jobs? If they pay more and they'll take you, go for it. Three, don't believe everything you hear from the Ed School about teaching jobs. They want you to go sacrifice yourself in some inner city school while they hang back in their cushy university job. The Ed. School is full of people who teach one theory but never live it themselves. Don't play that game, look out for yourself, everything they say may not be true. Three, consider teaching outside of Illinois, especially if it makes a big difference in pay, how long all this will take, and what it will cost you. If the system is that screwy, look out for yourself and go elsewhere. Teaching credentials can transfer pretty easily from state to state.

[MrMon]

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Huh? The no child left behind BS requires that you have a Masters, and a number of states required that you have it or get it withing x number of years after being hired.


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This is not true. NCLB requires that you are "highly qualified" and are qualified to teach your subject area. This does not require a masters.

[SoloAJ]

Mr Mon,

Thanks again. You're giving me a lot of ideas that I certianly would have never considered. I may have a few issues though.

Firstly, I am pretty sure it is way too late at this point to apply for grad school for the upcoming fall. So that might not work out very well in itself...yet.


Actually, let's say this first. I went and talked to the advisor and here is the result...

1) I am switching over to English Education. When I get that degree in two years, it is and IDENTICAL degree as if my major was English. Both are just listed as "Bachelor's in English." The only addition for the EE one is that from the STATE of Illinois (not the university), I will get a teaching certificate for high school level.

2) I can switch back at any time. If next January I realize that I hate teaching, I can switch my major back to English no problem, and apply for graduation next May. So in terms of my "insurance policy," it is still there.

3) In terms of marketing myself, the advisor said to basically make two resumes. Make one resume for teaching that focuses on my strong points and my certification. Make another resume that focuses on the boatload of English classes I took in my 6 years. In both cases, I will probably be asked why it took me 6 years instead of 4, and I think that if anything, this question would give me an opportunity to tout myself in an interview.

4) Basically as it stands, I will be going for a Bachelor's in English in 6 years, and it will carry with it the certification. This will save me roughly $10,000 (or it should anyway), and I don't lose a great deal.

Finally, I really really really like your idea MrMon about Masters. I just can't figure out how I would swing it at this point.


All,

I agree that teaching somewhere other than the state of Illinois, or my hometown specifically, would probably be beneficial. Truth is, I'm two years away from really having to make that choice of what location I want to teach in. A lot could change too. I love my family dearly and being close to them would be a huge boost for my general happiness. That said, for all I know both of my families (parents divorced long ago) could move away from my hometown and then I have no reason to stay there.


Soooooo,

Basically I'm just trying to tie up loose ends right now so that I can get back on track to get financial aid. I won't have a BA this May, but I can get one as soon as next December if I decide I hate teaching. Then I will be out some extra money, but I will have tried to do what I love.

I really hope I like teaching and all is well in the world. I also hope that I can get my masters and make some dolla bills doing teaching.


Again, I thank you very very much for your input. Given my current situation, I think I'm making the best move by switching over majors for now and reevaluating next fall.

[MrMon]

Deadlines to graduate programs are arbitrary, especially in in education. I got in mine two weeks before the semester started. They can admit you provisionally, especially if you tell them you're mainly there to get certification. Go talk to the Ed school, I have almost no doubt they'll tell you you can still get in. At least it might open up some other options.

There is Ed school and there is college. They are two different things. Don't confuse them.

[The Bandit Fish]

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Huh? The no child left behind BS requires that you have a Masters, and a number of states required that you have it or get it withing x number of years after being hired.


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This is not true. NCLB requires that you are "highly qualified" and are qualified to teach your subject area. This does not require a masters.

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Roger Roger, my info was flawed. Thank you for the correction.

[The Bandit Fish]

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I agree that teaching somewhere other than the state of Illinois, or my hometown specifically, would probably be beneficial. Truth is, I'm two years away from really having to make that choice of what location I want to teach in. A lot could change too. I love my family dearly and being close to them would be a huge boost for my general happiness. That said, for all I know both of my families (parents divorced long ago) could move away from my hometown and then I have no reason to stay there.


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Well I'm a firm believer in seeing other scenery. I've moved over 1000 miles twice in the past three years. First was transferring from western NY (where I grew up) to NW Louisiana. After seven years working that job, I got fed up and decided it was time to actually do something with my life.

Now I'm in eastern NC and have just started going back to school, so I sort of know how you feel. Granted I'm not going to become a teacher, thats something I don't have the patience for, (teachers should be paid a minimum of four times what they are for the crap they have to deal with!), but I'll hopefully end up with degrees in Aerospace Engineering and Mechanical Engineering. My head hurts just thinking about all the math. :/

I don't personally know how most schools pick teachers, but honestly if they're hiring people based upon being able to pay the person they hire less (which is what it seems like more than any sort of qualifications either candidate may have, from what you're describing), that frightens me.

I do know New York State pays teachers fairly well, and they now require you to have a Masters before you can even get the job. It used to be you had a few years to get the Masters and you couldn't get tenure until you finished your Masters. Just to give you an idea, starting pay around Rochester, NY is ~35k. In a lower paying district my mother was making ~60k/year after 21 years (she retired in 2000). I had teachers in highschool who were making 75k/year with 30 years. This was in the early-mid 90's too. If you can deal with Chicago weather you may want to look into NY state [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I wonder how many times I'll end up editing this post?

Ok as I said earlier, 10k is a drop in the bucket if thats all it will cost you to end up with more or better degrees.