Don't stack-a-donk the good players, guys

[ChipStorm]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If they were Aces, and the board offered more opportunity for villain to have hit an inferior hand, then stack-a-donk away.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that changes anything. How many TAGs just call a pf raise with QQ+?

NP: Kotiteollisuus - Soin

[/ QUOTE ]
Not many, but with position some will. And more importantly, they may call in position with AK/AQ, and if the flop comes with a K or Q, chances just increased that they hit top pair, which is after all the stack-a-donk's bread-and-butter target.

[Hince]

I don't like the line villian took in this hand at all, but it doesn't mean the stack-a-donk line is bad against good players. He overplayed his hand greatly.

I can't really see him folding out better hands when he builds the pot like this, but I definately see him folding out worse ones. Hero needs exactly AJ for his play to work some of the time. Every other worse hand folds. I don't see better hands folding either.

Villian overplayed his hand.

[BukNaked36]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stack a donk line I've used on soooo many tags and it is a very good play.



[/ QUOTE ]
Can you please explain the basics of the "Stack-a-donk" line.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's what you see in the example hand.
Raise preflop
C-bet flop
Check raise turn all in

Original thread is El D's QQ over Strasser's TT

[Thoth]

I don't think stack a donk is a bad line here for villain. A 19/15 coldcalling is almost always a weak to medium pair, meaning you missed the flop (or hit quads as here, but that's rather unlikely). Betting the turn generally just gets a fold where a c/r gets some more value from my overpair.

Only thing that would bother me as villain is the size of the bet. Most players floating hands like 88 here bet a bit more on the turn.

[ReptileHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think stack a donk is a bad line here for villain. A 19/15 coldcalling is almost always a weak to medium pair, meaning you missed the flop (or hit quads as here, but that's rather unlikely). Betting the turn generally just gets a fold where a c/r gets some more value from my overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

In that situation, why is a c/r superior to a c/c lead river line?

[JackAll]

I don't think this was badly played by villain.

What hands is he behind after that action up to the turn? 55 is insanely unlikely, as is AA/KK. JJ is about it and there are 3 combinations of that hand left.

But yea, I generally don't like c/r the turn vs a tag. I don't think this is a good example though.

[yad]

First, whey aren't you betting the turn with AJ?

Second, villain's turn c/r is not terrible. Personally with his hand I will often c/c the turn here and then either lead or c/c the river. But him c/r the turn is OK, as long as he balances it with turn c/r when he has a draw here. Something like AdQd or AdTd could c/r you here and if his frequences are right you are going to lose money to this.

[BalugaWhale]

I do not mind c/r the turn here. Having a wide turn c/r range is crucial to playing a deceptive game IMO.

I am c/r this turn with a monster, an overpair, and a draw.

Although, from your bet size, I may be inclined to just call with a draw getting pretty good odds, especially if its the backdoor club draw on the turn.

That said, I sometimes c/r here, I sometimes lead, I sometimes c/c-lead river, or c/c-c/c river. I'd say, probably 35%, 25%, 20%, 20%, villain depending and sometimes just randomly.

[terp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the point that merits discussion more here, bilbo, is your lame turn bet. every time i have an overpair/AJ/etc here and a TAGish player 1/2pots the turn, i know i'm beat. too many of you guys go all donkish when you get the absolute or near nuts. you got lucky that he didn't see through your valuebet and stacked himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are saying he should bet more? Whats so bad about 1/2 pot here?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes i absolutely think he should bet more. IME your average player with TAG stats bets differently when floating and when valuebetting near-nut hands in position after the preflop raiser checks the turn.

this is a transparent value bet. if you actually differentiate your bets like this, you might as well never float, because your floats will have no credibility.

and i still believe stackadonk is fine against actual TAGs, who will float in position and apply pressure on the turn with air. it discourages floating and gets extra value out of overaggressive players who have air and will fold to a second barrel but bet if checked to.

[Jamougha]

The real question here is whether he's checkraising the turn vs you with a wide enough range of air/draws to balance the cr with QQ. If so then it doesn't matter if you fold anything less than a 5, you loose either way. If not then it's obviously a bad move.