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  #41  
Old 12-01-2007, 02:35 PM
Nielsio Nielsio is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

fwiw, I blaim atheism for my last downswing as well.
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  #42  
Old 12-01-2007, 02:37 PM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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So the only thing stopping you from suicide is your religon. Sucks but maybe explains why you cling to it so desperately.

chez

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In context of what was being discussed this is a non sequitur, and you know it.

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?
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  #43  
Old 12-01-2007, 02:37 PM
madnak madnak is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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Technology does not make one happy.

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Technology provides food, warmth, and shelter, which are necessary for happiness (and which, largely due to religion and its effects on politics, many people still don't have).
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  #44  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:04 PM
madnak madnak is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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Nature causes both pain and pleasure. I don't see how it is easier for man to spread awful pain than to alleviate the suffering he causes.

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Then you're ignorant, or have no imagination.

I can traumatize a person within minutes such that the very best professional help will take years to repair the damage. Damage from severe enough trauma causes irreparable damage, and while evidence on torture is lacking, anecdotal evidence and extrapolation from the effects of relatively "tame" experiences indicate that severe, sustained torture can destroy the mind.

And the body? Same deal. It's easy to shatter a bone. It can be done in minutes, probably seconds if you know how. Hey vhawk, how long does it take to put back together? 1 hour? 2 hours? Ooh, maybe 2 hours and 15 minutes? And it's easy, right? And the quality of the repair is excellent, ldo.

Thankfully the vast majority of people choose to do more good than harm - if it were the other way around... I don't want to think about it.

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If an atheist is convinced that life on the whole is much more painful than pleasurable, I don't see why he would not commit suicide. It would be the reasonable thing to do.

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My life isn't more painful than pleasurable. But it was. I was actively suicidal for over a decade, and it was rough. Suicide is hard, I doubt you understand how hard it is. We really aren't built to kill ourselves, or even to consider it as an option. From your beliefs, I suppose God's twisted sense of humor prevents him from allowing such an easy escape. And oh, because of religious poison most of the world believes that committing suicide will result in eternal torture. That's something of a disincentive.

But the more important issue - we're doing better. Most people in the developed world are never raped or tortured, they never suffer from plagues, they don't see loved ones killed on a regular basis, they never starve or go hungry for months at a time. We've persevered and conquered the brutal existence that we knew in nature and especially during early civilization. Chances are that, during most of human history, if you had suggested a pain/pleasure view of utility, people would have thought you were crazy. Only the wealthy ever thought that way, it just wasn't how the world was perceived. People had to find value in life beyond pleasure, because what pleasure they had was meager.

Of course, nature still has its way with us. Though we do what we can to support happiness, all of our efforts are eventually counteracted. Disease finds us, entropy takes everything (and everyone) we value away from us, our constant needs overwhelm us and the limited means to meet those needs frustrate us, and those who try to help us often do more harm than good... And occasionally (very rarely in areas where need isn't a major concern) a bad apple deliberately makes things worse.

But it's the nature of our existence that causes the vast majority of our suffering - and it's our personal power and our compassion that allow us to overcome it despite the odds. So I'm comfortable saying that if a God is responsible for the nature of our reality, then God is evil and humans are good. Thankfully I don't believe that - any gods that exist are probably in the same boat we are.
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  #45  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:15 PM
RJT RJT is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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Pretty harsh. I can only imagine what you would call people who opine after reading an 8 paragraph news article of a 76 page text.

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Hey! You're being awfully dumb. How can you criticize valen for one small post, when he has a huge posting history? Have you read all of his posts so you have a basis to talk about him?

How about this - when you read one full page of pure idiotic drivel, reading the other 75 pages is stupid. I have better things to do with my time than wade through irrelevant hateful nonsense, and I've seen more than enough of it from this pope to know what his words are worth.

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I hadnít realized he was so well published. I was responding to his post which I assumed from the context that it was based on this thread. Had he wished the reader to know that his one sentence referenced his own history as well as the Popeís, perhaps he should have made that clearer.

And if folk want to base their opinion of a 76 page text from an AP news article I have no problem with that. If you (and he) are basing your opinions on prior information that is fine. It does no good, though, to give such opinions as presented.
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  #46  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:23 PM
luckyme luckyme is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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And if folk want to base their opinion of a 76 page text from an AP news article I have no problem with that. If you (and he) are basing your opinions on prior information that is fine. It does no good, though, to give such opinions as presented.

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Just read that Donald Trump has hired a group of girls he calls the Trumpettes. He's such a pompous ass, about as bad as it gets.

luckyme
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  #47  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:28 PM
madnak madnak is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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I hadn’t realized he was so well published. I was responding to his post which I assumed from the context that it was based on this thread. Had he wished the reader to know that his one sentence referenced his own history as well as the Pope’s, perhaps he should have made that clearer.

And if folk want to base their opinion of a 76 page text from an AP news article I have no problem with that. If you (and he) are basing your opinions on prior information that is fine. It does no good, though, to give such opinions as presented.

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You're missing my point. I was being sarcastic. You're perfectly justified in talking about valen's post, because you don't need to know his whole posting history to evaluate what he says. You can discuss each individual post on its own. And if he says something stupid or horrible, then you can call him on it, even if you aren't an expert on his 2p2 history.

Similarly, we're discussing the quotes posted in this thread and in the article. We can do so without knowing anything about the Pope. Calling him an idiot based on one blurb might be a little extreme, but we can discuss that blurb all we care to without needing to read the rest, and we can use it as a clue of the Pope's general position on atheism and atheists.
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  #48  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:37 PM
RJT RJT is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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Similarly, we're discussing the quotes posted in this thread and in the article. We can do so without knowing anything about the Pope. Calling him an idiot based on one blurb might be a little extreme, but we can discuss that blurb all we care to without needing to read the rest, and we can use it as a clue of the Pope's general position on atheism and atheists.

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And you have no worries that this article wasnít the least bit titillating? I wish my faith in God was as strong as your faith in journalists.

(Good use of sarcasm, btw. Wish I had caught it on my own.)
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  #49  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:51 PM
Peter666 Peter666 is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

So you've given us your theory on the evil in nature (which the major religions agree with) plus a proposed solution:

"it's our personal power and our compassion that allow us to overcome it despite the odds."

Which is what religion proposes to do, although they go to God for help, whereas you summon the giant within Anthony Robbins style.

Unless you can demonstrate that you're happier than a religious theist, why on earth should they take atheism seriously?
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  #50  
Old 12-01-2007, 04:17 PM
Hopey Hopey is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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"It is no accident that this idea has led to the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice,"

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And as a former Nazi, he knows from whence he speaks.
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