Some basics about 2nd barrels and sizing c-bets

[Nick Royale]

Alright, my poker account is locked so I'll make a theoretical post about something I think many put too little thought into, esp while multitabling; how to vary your c-bet size depending on your future plan for the hand. I'm going to use two examples.



Hand 1 - 200nl

Preflop: One limper, you raise A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] to $10 in CO, Button calls (32/10/1), limper folds.

Flop (pot: $25): J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
You?

So obviously we c-bet this dry flop, but what's our plan for future streets? Well in this case it's pretty simple, we'll 2nd as a bluff about never because the cards that are good to 2nd barrel are the same cards that improves our hand. With that in mind I like betting a bit more than the standard 17ish bet. When I know I'm giving up on any turn I would immediately like to make my opponent less inclined to float around with crappy pairs or gut-shots, investing a few more dollars in the c-flop may well be worth it. As a meta game benefit we're also not giving away our hand betting big with a hand like 77 on this flop.


Hand 2 - 200nl

Preflop: All folds, you raise J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] to $8 in CO, BB (18/11/2) calls.

Flop (pot: $16): K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
You?

Let's say you have some history with this player and you suspect he'll c/c this flop with a PP, but he's very likely to fold a PP on the turn if you make a decent bet again. In this situation there's no reason at all betting big on the flop, since you're planning on following up on the turn anyway. In general, when you're planning to follow up with a 2nd barrel you don't mind your opponent calling the flop bet with a wide range. The marginal hands he calls on flop will he fold on the turn anyway. If you bet $9-10 on this flop he'll probably call plenty of PPs and that's great because when you fire 2/3-pot on the turn those extra hands he'll call the flop with is donating money to you.



Ok, so these were just two examples. I'm not saying that if you're planning to 2nd barrel you should always c-bet smaller. Sometimes you need to make a big c-bet to be able to follow up big on the turn and get a weak player to fold a weak TP, or sometimes even setting up for a 3 barrel push when you think you're opponent isn't likely to have a strong enough hand to look you up often.

My point is that when you make a bet on the flop you should always consider what your plan for the coming streets is. What's villain's range? What hands are you trying to get to fold? What do you need to do to accomplish this? By sizing your flop bet in line with your turn plan you're less likely to end up in marginal spots on the turn where you don't know whether or not a 2nd barrel is profitable.


Comments appreciated.

[tubasteve]

good post. i wish you theoretical types wouldnt make these posts. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[mertzo]

Nice, will read [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Sorcerer808]

Really good post, I didn't really think about this before except in cases where I wanted to push somewhere in the hand.

In hand 1, how much exactly is a few more dollars in the c-bet and does it really make that big of a difference? (You wrote c-flop)

[orange]

I like your second example. It was something I was thinking about the other day.

I call AJs from a MP raise from a lag. flop was J74r.

I decided to lead and call any raise. i felt that there was a very high % that the lag would raise my donk.

given that i think he raises my donk 80+%, i was thinking about the right bet sizing- if i know he'll raise me and my intention is to never fold the flop, should i donk higher in order for him to raise a larger amount, thus building the pot larger?

typically, i bet a bit smaller than most 2p2ers on certain types of flops. on drier boards, i would 1/2 pot alot. i know that many tag players frown down upon this and it is definitely not a popular concept in ssnl. however, it has worked well for me and i think can induce some nice action from overly aggro tags.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
In hand 1, how much exactly is a few more dollars in the c-bet and does it really make that big of a difference? (You wrote c-flop)


[/ QUOTE ]
My main point was that it's better to bet a bit more like $20 rather than betting $15 or less when you're planning on giving up if called. This is obv also read dependant, some nits play fit and fold and against these players we don't need to think about this but ime there are some players (often the 32/10-kind) that like to float when sensing weakness. This isn't really a perfect example since I think 17-18 is ok though.