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  #11  
Old 09-25-2007, 09:18 PM
drzen drzen is offline
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Default Re: Software Review Thread - For Tools Sticky. (SPAM within?)

[ QUOTE ]
Am I missing where ICM Poker allows you to set ranges for anybody in the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

You just type them in where they appear, replacing the defaults. The interface could do with some work though. Took me ages to work out where the results were.
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  #12  
Old 09-25-2007, 09:46 PM
shakyamuni shakyamuni is offline
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Default Re: Software Review Thread - For Tools Sticky. (SPAM within?)

[ QUOTE ]
Am I missing where ICM Poker allows you to set ranges for anybody in the hand?



Also I noticed on their forum that someone mentioned using flash for a hand range slider; you can use the ajax toolkit for .net (since the site is written in dotnet) - http://www.asp.net/AJAX/AjaxControlT...er/Slider.aspx

[/ QUOTE ]

that was meeee - thanks for the link [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
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  #13  
Old 09-25-2007, 10:30 PM
BradleyT BradleyT is offline
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Default Re: Software Review Thread - For Tools Sticky. (SPAM within?)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Am I missing where ICM Poker allows you to set ranges for anybody in the hand?



Also I noticed on their forum that someone mentioned using flash for a hand range slider; you can use the ajax toolkit for .net (since the site is written in dotnet) - http://www.asp.net/AJAX/AjaxControlT...er/Slider.aspx

[/ QUOTE ]

that was meeee - thanks for the link [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the developer of the site has to impliment it...I was just telling him a way to do it without flash using the programming technology the site was written in (asp.net) but that's really getting way off topic.

But I agree that the site does need to impliment some sort of range feature although it does accept %'s.

Also, I'm not sure if it's his web host or what but the site seems to load very slow at times.
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  #14  
Old 09-25-2007, 10:43 PM
IFoldPktOnes IFoldPktOnes is offline
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Default Re: Software Review Thread - For Tools Sticky. (SPAM within?)

[ QUOTE ]

For the Nash calculator - is it hurting us, helping us, or doesn't matter when our opponents aren't in equilibrium with us?

[/ QUOTE ]
For heads up your opponents strategy doesn't matter since any deviation they make from equilibrium will only increase your EV. With more than 2 players the game is no longer zero sum between any two players since chipEV isn't $EV. This means that if you were to stick to the nash equilibrium strategy your opponents can now hurt your EV by giving up EV themselves by calling too wide, pushing too tight, etc. So it certainly does matter that your opponents aren't in equilibrium with you. This is why in reality we try to play in such a way as to maximally exploit our opponents mistakes by adjusting to whatever ranges we put them on.

That said, I think the Nash calculator is a great tool that has a lot of application. The ranges suggested give you a good starting point for many ICM problems and the solutions themselves can be used in situations against good regs. I find EQDiff very interesting as well since it gives you some idea how your expected equity changes due to position, stack size, etc.
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  #15  
Old 09-25-2007, 11:20 PM
DevinLake DevinLake is offline
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Default Re: Software Review Thread - For Tools Sticky. (SPAM within?)

[ QUOTE ]
For heads up your opponents strategy doesn't matter since any deviation they make from equilibrium will only increase your EV

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you quantify if this is the case?

For instance, if an opponent isn't shoving as wide as NE would dictate, you are gaining EV from the extra blinds you get. But, if you don't stray from NE and call based on NE, he will be gaining EV on your calls.

Which effect is stronger?
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  #16  
Old 09-26-2007, 03:14 AM
plexiq plexiq is offline
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Default Re: Software Review Thread - For Tools Sticky. (SPAM within?)

About the nash-calculator:
If you have any suggestions to improve the usability, please let me know.

@Devin:
[ QUOTE ]
For instance, if an opponent isn't shoving as wide as NE would dictate, you are gaining EV from the extra blinds you get. But, if you don't stray from NE and call based on NE, he will be gaining EV on your calls.

Which effect is stronger?

[/ QUOTE ]

By definition, in a Nash Equilibrium no player can increase his own EV by changing his strategy (if all other players stick to the Nash Strategy).

So, to answer your question: The second effect must not be stronger (otherwise we don't have a real NE). [The effects could theoretically cancel each other out and the strategy-change may be EV-neutral. But for NLHE-HU Push/Fold a deviation from the NE is typically -EV if your opponent plays Nash.]
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  #17  
Old 09-26-2007, 04:04 AM
IFoldPktOnes IFoldPktOnes is offline
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Default Re: Software Review Thread - For Tools Sticky. (SPAM within?)

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For heads up your opponents strategy doesn't matter since any deviation they make from equilibrium will only increase your EV

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you quantify if this is the case?

For instance, if an opponent isn't shoving as wide as NE would dictate, you are gaining EV from the extra blinds you get. But, if you don't stray from NE and call based on NE, he will be gaining EV on your calls.

Which effect is stronger?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I might check the maths myself just to be sure. Say you have 10BBs each heads up and you are on the BB. You both play optimaly so SB pushes 59.0% and you call 37.6%. This gives you a range-vs-range equity of 54.9% when you call.

Now calculating your EV in #BBs:
EV = P(opponent push)[P(call)[P(win)*EV(win)+P(lose)*EV(lose)]+P(fold)EV(fold)] + P(opponent fold)*EV(opponent fold)
= (.59)[0.376[0.549*10+.451*(-10)]+0.624*(-1)] + 0.41*0.5
= -0.151 + .205 = +0.054 BBs

This time your opponent changes strategy and pushes 22.7%, you continue calling with a 37.6% range. Your new range-vs-range equity is 45.1%.

EV = P(opponent push)[P(call)[P(win)*EV(win)+P(lose)*EV(lose)]+P(fold)EV(fold)] + P(opponent fold)*EV(opponent fold)
= (.227)[0.376*[0.454*10+0.546*(-10)]+0.624*(-1)] + 0.773*0.5
= -0.220 + 0.386 = +0.166 BBs

(I ignored card removal effects)

As expected the equity you gain from your opponent folding the SB too often more than makes up for the fact you are calling with a range that is way behind. However, if you had adapted to your opponents new range your EV would be even higher. You might wonder if your opponent limping in a certain % of the time might improve his tight-pushing strategy by not giving up the SB as often. But by pushing all his best hands he has weakened his limping range enough so that you can push very wide (often ATC) profitably if he limps. In most cases this strategy would be even worse for your opponent.

Edit: Forgot to carry the one
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  #18  
Old 09-26-2007, 09:41 AM
Jbrochu Jbrochu is offline
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Default Re: Software Review Thread - For Tools Sticky. (SPAM within?)

[ QUOTE ]
I've developed a website called ICM Poker where you can get the exact same results as SnGPT for free!

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Feedback appreciated,
--Qubit

[/ QUOTE ]


Did you get permission from Eastbay to use the endorsements of SNGPT (including endorsements from Dan Harrington and 2+2 forum members) to promote your product? Do you have Eastbay's permission to use the SNGPT logo on your webpage?

Until these questions are answered I don't believe it's appropriate to add this software to the link.
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  #19  
Old 09-27-2007, 10:49 PM
Qubit Qubit is offline
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Default Re: Software Review Thread - For Tools Sticky. (SPAM within?)

Bradley,

[ QUOTE ]
Am I missing where ICM Poker allows you to set ranges for anybody in the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. If you go to the ICM Applicator do you see a the poker table with the images like this:


If you did see those, then click on them to edit their contents. There is a description below the applicator
detailing the available hand range inputs.

[ QUOTE ]
Also I noticed on their forum that someone mentioned using flash for a hand range slider; you can use the ajax toolkit for .net (since the site is written in dotnet) - http://www.asp.net/AJAX/AjaxControlT...er/Slider.aspx

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the suggestion and we will certainly implement into our new version. We are in the process of redesigning our applicator to make it portable and skinnable so that it can easily be integrated into any website. I'll post back when it is completed.
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  #20  
Old 09-27-2007, 11:09 PM
Qubit Qubit is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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Default Re: Software Review Thread - For Tools Sticky. (SPAM within?)

[ QUOTE ]
Did you get permission from Eastbay to use the endorsements of SNGPT (including endorsements from Dan Harrington and 2+2 forum members) to promote your product? Do you have Eastbay's permission to use the SNGPT logo on your webpage?

[/ QUOTE ]

We emailed him when we launched our site and he didn't respond. He responded a few days ago saying that he wants his his handle and product name removed from my site. Although I don't think he has much legal ground, I told him I'd do it. There will be major changes happening around ICM Poker in the next couple weeks. I've been busy but tomorrow I will complete his request.

--
Qubit
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