abusing bad TAG players preflop [theory]

[matrix]

I'm trying to get my head around ways to open my game up a little and take more small/medum pots away from bad TAG regulars at the tables I play so that I don't continue being a mediocre break even bad TAG player myself. I'd love to get SSNL's thoughts on some preflop scenarios.

Some situationsall villains here are mcTAGs 20/15/3ish with Attempt to Steal %'s in the low 30's that we have a decent chunk of mined data on) - Heros image is ~20/17/3 similar but a little more aggressive)

i) CO opens 4bb - Hero is OTB with trash like 84o or w/e and 3bets pot. Hero has position if called and will probably take the pot down on OK flops with a CB.

is this is a profitable play in a vacuum? what kind of flops are better to CB Is this only profitable because of the image it creates so that when we 3bet a real hand we get a to more action... ? Or is this just a bad plan?

ii) BTN opens and we 3bet same kind of hand from the blinds - same questions.

Obv we'd be doing this sparingly (approximately how often is a ogod frequency? - or is that totally villain dependant) - but overall is playing more 3bet pots IP vs regulars a good idea if we assume that we play postflop at least as good as the villain does and so position gives us a good edge.

Once this goes "wrong" - say we 3bet IP with air - are flat called preflop and then villain c/r our 3bet all-in. Should we make much of an adjustment and tighten up 3betting considerably afterwards for x orbits or wait until this happens more than once?

[ikestoys]

you don't need to do this with 84 to beat bad tags.

[chiTown22]

Question to ask yourself each time.

What is the purpose of my 3bet?

Trying to 3bet X percentage of the time regardless of your hand does not make sense to me. Aggression is good, aggression with no purpose behind it is spew.

However, I have been called a Nit, ABC tag, Aggo Donk, and other names not worth repeating.

[matrix]

in the examples above the purpose of my 3bet is to win a small/medium pot preflop or on the flop from a TAG player who I think is opening a wide range that will likely miss the flop and he won't be able to profitably continue postflop OOP vs me.

I am not trying to 3bet x% - I spose another way of asking this is - if we think TAG in LP is opening a wide range of hands do we only 3bet IP/OOP if we think we are ahead of that range - or when we "sense weakness" are fairly sure that the hand won't make it past the flop and so our cards as they are very unlikely to get to SD don't really matter?

Am I missing the point somehwere entirely and are there better ways to steal small/medium pots vs bad TAG players?

I figured I'd start with preflop cos it's the easiest street to play.

[Noam Chomsky]

you should start with finding the massive amounts of post flop spots to steal the small/medium pots that are more profitable and readily available to anyone who takes the time to look.

[EasyAs1-2-3]

I think 3betting w/ that kind of rubbish OOP from the blinds is something that should be done less than sparingly. I would advocate this only when someone is flat out abusing the BTN and you're fairly sure you will take it down pre, and are planning on a complete shutdown if you do not.

[pineapple888]

Um, the idea is that if you are doing this x% of the time, you might as well go ahead and wait until you have a top x% hand. Makes it real easy, and more profitable and stuff.

[Irishman07]

Theres really no reason to do it with complete trash. You can do it with hands that will at least flop something some of the time and still be fine. Even 96s is so much better than 84o, and the times you are called the added equity you'll have over 84o will add up.

I just did a rough pokerstove for a villain with a loose calling range of your 3bet - and 96s had roughly a 7% increase in equity over 84o. This may not seem like a ton, but it's a decent clip over the long run.

[chiTown22]

[ QUOTE ]
in the examples above the purpose of my 3bet is to win a small/medium pot preflop or on the flop from a TAG player who I think is opening a wide range that will likely miss the flop and he won't be able to profitably continue postflop OOP vs me.

I am not trying to 3bet x% - I spose another way of asking this is - if we think TAG in LP is opening a wide range of hands do we only 3bet IP/OOP if we think we are ahead of that range - or when we "sense weakness" are fairly sure that the hand won't make it past the flop and so our cards as they are very unlikely to get to SD don't really matter?

Am I missing the point somehwere entirely and are there better ways to steal small/medium pots vs bad TAG players?

I figured I'd start with preflop cos it's the easiest street to play.

[/ QUOTE ]
If I understand you correctly you are hoping to exploit the fact that in general a person will miss a flop ~60% of the time. i.e. they fold prefop or they miss and fold to your cbet.

Consider this, when they call preflop.
4BB open
~12BB 3bet
call
~25BB pot
check
c-bet ~18-20BB

you risk ~30BB to win ~12. If this play works ~60% of the time you will lose money. Obviously this is very fuzzy math and there are a tons of variables, but in general 3betting air with the plan to win without showdown is -EV.

[Speedlimits]

3betting is a really important part of a shorthanded NL cash players game. I've discussed with a lot of people WHY 3betting is so effective but if I wrote it all out it would take me 20+mins (only have 2min or so right now).

Basic premises of 3betting:

You want to be 3betting with a wider ranger IN POSITION as opposed to OOP. There are many reasons for this but an important one is that most people feel really uncomfortable playing past the flop in 3bet pots.

Knowing which boards to c-bet and which boards to check is REALLY important if you are 3betting light (which you should be doing with a very high frequency).

Also knowing which boards to float/which boards to raise there c-bet with is very important too. gtg but ill try to re-visit this topic later.