Calling with trash OOP

[mvdgaag]

Hi all... Lately I've been trying to call raises with trash, OOP, and pick up the pot if I think they missed the flop. It seems to work out fine against the type of player that typically only raises his broadway hands and some smaller pairs. I won't to it a lot though, most of the time I'm there with a small pocket pair or suited connector if I limp/call, so I might very well have hit if it's up to them.

If I'm OOP this is the best, cause I can bet into them, which is cheaper than having to reraise his (likely) cbet.

I might also hit with a very nicely conceiled hand as a bonus.

What do you guys think? Any more advice or variantions on this play?

[matrixx1984]

I find that this often works, and I often pick up small pots... but once in a while I do this and get taken for a pile of money, so overall I'd say this is not a good strategy!

[mvdgaag]

How are you taken for a pile of money? You call preflop, bet... if he calls or plays back you should quit. The pots you lose should be the same size as the pots you win. The blinds and money from folded limpers give it a bit of a bunus even, so the costs should be lower when you lose than the winnings when you take it.

[runout_mick]

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What do you guys think?

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Any time you're playing out of position (any hand: AA or 72o), you're going to lose more when behind, and win less when ahead.

You might be winning a few pots by calling raises with junk oop, but it's a losing longterm strategy.

[mvdgaag]

That surprises me, since I try to pick my opponents to be the ones that will only raise preflop with a descent hand and will give up when they don't hit. When headsup, my opponent won't hit 2/3 of the time. If it's a flop where I think he didn't hit and I am correct it's more than 50% of the time. Since I give up when he calls or raises and he gives up when he didn't hit I pick up the pot more than 50% of the time with nothing as long as they don't bluff me too often. Sometimes he will hit middle pair or a weak draw and has to fold. Also sometimes I hit and have the best hand. Plus my losses are smaller than my winnings, because there is almost always some dead money in there from the blinds or a folded limper. So I don't even have to win half of them to brake even. I can't imagine how betting on a low card flop, OOP, is going to be -EV after an opponent like this raised PF and we are headsup, since most of the time when the flop looks right, he'll have missed and give up. Unfortunately I have not played that many hands online using this play as I think I should, but the last 5K hands show a small profit when I did this. I'll repost at 20K hands or so. Probably at any game bigger than 10NL players will not fall for this easily and it won't work.

Thanx for the responses so far, hope to get more.

[isnogud]

you might forget that when your opponent raises preflop, he is likely to have a high pocket pair and doesn´t need to hit the flop to have a hand.

[jipster]

" Plus my losses are smaller than my winnings, because there is almost always some dead money in there from the blinds or a folded limper."

Errrm.... let us assume 2 limpers = 3.5bb plus the raise of 4 bb = 7.5bb plus your OOP call is 11.5bb..... And lets say you make a 10bb move on the flop 60% of the time....

how do you lose less when your behind yet make more when they fold? it seems the same to me regardless

Anyways; i think this is a long term loser once your opponents work you out.... why not do it in position instead?

cheers

[Gonso]

Calling raises with trash OOP is just bad business against most opponents.

Very occasionally you will run into semi-loose/weak players that will allow you to do it. They'll raise with marginal hands, but then offer no resistance when you try to Gus Hansen them raising a trash flop OOP.

If they have a real hand, it won't work. If they missed but don't believe you, it won't work. If they aren't able to fold, it won't work. If they call you'll be somewhat lost on the turn. If they have a draw,

The other danger is that you hit a nice second-best hand. You won't flop bottom two pair against someone else's top two pair all that often, but the giant pots are significant enough to matter in the long-term.

I'm not saying a strong player will excellent post-flop play can't do this on occasion, because you can. I would consider it 'making a play' though, not a regular winning strategy.

If you're looking to play a few extra pots with garbage OOP, it's probably better to do it when you can lead out yourself, not jump in when someone else is representing some kind of strength. Even an EP or MP raise seems better than that - if you're going to bet then flop OOP then, at least you've given a reason why you're hand is better.

All told though, I like the idea of just playing the extra hands in position in the first place like jipster was saying.

[mvdgaag]

@isnogud: True... Someone that raises too much preflop will have two paint or Ax more often than a big pair though.

@jipster: I do it with position if I get the chance. But if you set up this play preflop and call a bet in position you are most probably facing a cbet. You'll know nothing from both positions (a cbet does not give a lot of information), but reraising a cbet will cost more and you are more likely to get called than betting into the preflop raiser (which is not a weaker play than reraising a cbet if you ask me).

@Gonso: I agree you should be very selective with this play. The nice thing is that you can do it from the blinds or LP and know you are going to be heads up against a certain opponent, so it is very easy to be selective. I think you get second best hands equally often with a descent hand as with trash, so it has nothing to do with this play specifically. I agree that this should not be standard at all, but when you have a tight image you can once in a while do this for a little extra profit. Leading out yourself might improve your chances indeed. Good point. On the other hand it is a lot harder to assure you're headsup and to put someone on a hand, since limp/calling is done with a bigger range of hands than leading out in most games.

Thanks everyone for the input!

Maarten

[IzanDV]

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Anyways; i think this is a long term loser once your opponents work you out.... why not do it in position instead?

cheers

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Good post but, in position they'll expect you to make the move so they'll think your hand is much weaker then betting into 2 oppnents, if i see a tight opponent bet into two people I would lay-down middle or bottem-pair(great pot-odds and drawning hands as exception). If i see a person make a bet after two people have checked, i might come after him with my middle pair.