How to beat calling stations?

kekedarius · #1 02-04-2007, 12:21 AM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($20.45)
BB ($95.55)
UTG ($26.80)
MP ($19.95)
Hero ($54.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.5, SB calls $2.25, 1 fold, UTG calls $2.

Flop: ($8) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($8) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $7, SB calls $7, UTG folds.

River: ($22) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $22

Villains are about 60/5/0. Both players have a history of calling down every single street with as little as bottom pair bottom kicker. What are you supposed to do against this type of player? Cbetting seems to only bloat the pot, and value betting can only be done if you actually make your hand. I'm at a loss on how to go about this.

raistlinx · #2 02-04-2007, 12:35 AM

You have to wait for your made hands and then value bet them. Running the nuts into them always works well. It's not fun poker but it is the only thing that works. Toss c-betting out the window unless you have some good outs to improve.

Hank Scorpio · #3 02-04-2007, 12:37 AM

check the turn there

kekedarius · #4 02-04-2007, 12:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You have to wait for your made hands and then value bet them. Running the nuts into them always works well. It's not fun poker but it is the only thing that works. Toss c-betting out the window unless you have some good outs to improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

So just check/fold any time you don't nail a flop? That sounds so wrong [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

raistlinx · #5 02-04-2007, 01:03 AM

I know. But it is the only way to beat them.

lynxman73 · #6 02-04-2007, 02:05 AM

the key to beating calling stations is losing NOTHING when you miss, which is not that hard to do. just value bet. don't cbet cuz all the great pros do it on tv and you see everybody on 2 plus 2 do it or you've had them tell you to do it. adapt, adapt, adapt!!!!

AKQJ10 · #7 02-04-2007, 02:26 AM

If they're true calling stations, they're not going to bet much. So you'll be checking a lot of flops behind insteaxd of CBing, which is great when you catch cards like here. Otherwise just run all the cards out and see who wins, which will more often be you since you're starting with good hands.

I don't think checking the turn is correct here -- with two opponents and no flop bet, you're paranoid to assume someone must have a ten -- but be very ready to give up your top pair, depending on the identity of any raiser of course.

It'd have to be some sort of awful calling station to make betting the river correct here. If he'd often look you up with a pair of nines or less then it's defensible.

sputum · #8 02-04-2007, 04:19 AM

Just bet when you want them to call. Nothing better than a guy who checks and calls.
As for the hand in question - I like betting the turn for value but would probably make it less, around $4-5. Like river check.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm at a loss on how to go about this

[/ QUOTE ]
What sort of opponents do you prefer? TAGs? Nits? Send your stations this way, I'll deroll them [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Against true stations I like to play less aggressively in the early rounds. Bloating the pot early often makes them calling less of a mistake, especially against shorties as you are here. I'm still thinking this through but if your preflop raise has a fold equity of near-zero then why not raise less? (I'm always raising this here of course) maybe $1.50? This gives you max IO per player of 14-1 ish plus rather than 8/1 and 10/1 and imo this helps the skilled player more, gets you a free turn card just as often if you decide to take it etc.

AKQJ10 · #9 02-04-2007, 05:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Toss c-betting out the window unless you have some good outs to improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually there's one more nit to pick with this. C-betting has two purposes: to protect a dodgy hand with showdown value and to semibluff with a hand that missed the flop. It's not always clear which is which. If you CB AK on a JT7 flop, you're betting for value/protection if your opponents happen to hold A6s and 64s. You're betting as a bluff if one opponent happens to hold 44 or T9.

Calling stations are frustrating to play against because they'll call down with 44 there, so you definitely should CB less. But if you can make a decent guess that you're ahead -- say with AK unimproved heads-up on the flop -- you should still bet to protect your hand. Any hand without an ace or king has six outs to beat you.

raistlinx · #10 02-04-2007, 07:54 AM

There are just too many ways a board of JT7 could have connected with the calling stations. Now if you have a flush draw and gutshot straight draw to go along with your two overcards then by all means cbet it, even just a flush draw. But with only 6 outs and not all of them clean I just don't see the value in cbetting into calling stations.