Bankrolling 17 year old kid

[stigmata]

the kid sounds like he doesnt need you, and is smart enough to know it

[Point Point]

[ QUOTE ]
the kid sounds like he doesnt need you, and is smart enough to know it

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly the objective behind this project. To get him to a level where he won't need me. What I failed to mention is that this poker thing is just part of a bigger project that hopefully would make him totally independent and successful. Here are the books that I had him read during his senior year and during the summer vacation (I paid him 30 bucks per book on top of his allowance and I believe him that his comprehension rate is at least 90%):

Persuasion:

Maximum Influence by Mortensen

One Minute Salesperson by Johnson

Personal finance:

The Wealthy Barber by Chilton

Young Fabulous and Broke by Suze Orman (video version)

Secrets of the Millionaire Mind by T. Harv Ecker

The 21 Secrets of Self Made Millionaires by Brian Tracy

Entrepreneurship:

E-Myth Revisited by Gerber

Go It Alone by Judson

Cashflow Quadrant by Kiyosaki

Multiple Streams of Income by Robert Allen

Personal Effectiveness:

Focal Point by Brian Tracy

Eat That Frog by Brian Tracy

Self-Help Psychology:

Success Principles by Jack Canfield

Unlimited Power by Anthony Robbins

Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl

Leadership:

One Minute Manager by Blanchard and Johnson

The One Minute Manager Builds a High Performance Team by Blanchard

Who Moved My Cheese by Johnson

Strategy:

The Art of War by Sun Tzu

The Concentrated Essence of Strategy and Tactics by Liddell Hart

Genghis Khan and Sabutai from Great Captains Unveiled (Liddell Hart)

But the reason why this poker project is so important is that it is CLEAR and PRESENT. Most of the above reads would take years to implement while the poker reading and playing project could be implemented as early as next month.Plus, poker can teach him self-discipline, logic, reading situations, the concept of EV, the importance of thinking long term, emotional control, etc.

I thank all of those of you who have given advice. I am definitely adding cash games to his hands on experience pool.The object, really, is to have him have enough knowledge of no limit holdem in all its forms so that if he chooses to, he can integrate poker into his income streams. To make him knowledgeable and competent enough to have poker as a REAL option if he chooses to do so.

As of now, I still have not come up with the proper sequence of books for him to read, and the combination of competitive contexts through which he can learn to apply the knowledge. I'm more confused than ever. So far the first phase looks as follows but it is still not final:

Watch Final Table DVD by Gordon on "beginner's mode", listen to the audio version Little Green Book twice over, then re-watch Final Table DVD but this time on "advanced mode". Finally, have him read the first three chapters of TOP as well as the "Poker and Emotions" section of Inside the Poker Mind.

Second Phase would probably be:

HOH 1, then HOH2, then probably the Largay book.

Third Phase would envolve playing, playing, and playing. Cash games, MTTSNGs, STSNGs (full game), Six handed SNGs, Heads up SNGs. During this stage, he can't decide what to play. I will tell him. Hopefully, you guys can help me decide what competitive contexts and in what order he should play. Cash games first? MTTs second? etc.

The fourth phase would have him exposed to different playing styles: SSII, Making the Final Table, Kill Phil, etc. And general theory books: TOP, NHTP, PNL1.

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how can one be a good monopoly player?

[/ QUOTE ]
You me and one of your friends play monopoly for $1k each. I give you each 3% vig.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. Let's make it happen.

[Lego05]

I don't know why you want to mix up games so much.

Cash games are very different from tournaments and multi table tournaments are very different from single table tournaments and headsup play is very different from everything else.


You're gonna have him learning like 7 different things and it will take a long long time to do that. And he probably won't grasp any of them as well as he would if he focused on fewer things.

[Point Point]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why you want to mix up games so much.

Cash games are very different from tournaments and multi table tournaments are very different from single table tournaments and headsup play is very different from everything else.


You're gonna have him learning like 7 different things and it will take a long long time to do that. And he probably won't grasp any of them as well as he would if he focused on fewer things.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you recommend "step number 1" should be?

[Lego05]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why you want to mix up games so much.

Cash games are very different from tournaments and multi table tournaments are very different from single table tournaments and headsup play is very different from everything else.


You're gonna have him learning like 7 different things and it will take a long long time to do that. And he probably won't grasp any of them as well as he would if he focused on fewer things.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you recommend "step number 1" should be?

[/ QUOTE ]


Good players don't have as big an edge in SNG's as they do in cash games. This is due to the fact that in sng's there is very little play on later streets. Also the average player has improved at sng's and it's actually not that easy to beat the rake at $60 and $100 levels and to play higher then that successfully you need to make like near perfect ICM push/fold decisions.

(Even BigJoe2003, regarded by many as the best sng player has an ROI of 3% with an average stake of $350 at sng's.)


In cash games good players have a bigger edge because they are playing with bigger stacks which allows more play on later streets. Cash games have a higher ceiling as far as profits go. And I think that most people feel the edge is bigger in 6max games rather than full ring because you can play more hands and also many people don't adjust well to shorthanded games.


So I would suggest focusing on cash game play (once again this just excellent: http://www.pr0crast.com/2+2.NL.Anthology.v1.htm) - Much better than most poker books IMO. No Limit Holdem Theory and Practice was pretty good though I guess. I haven't really read anything else geared for cash games besides Super Systems and I wouldn't really recommend it.


I really don't see any reason to get into sng's at all. I have completely stopped playing sng's....I have made over $10K having played 5500 sng's in my lifetime: I made $10K in my first 3500 sng's and $0 in my last 2000 sng's. Perhaps that shows a little how much tougher they did get.


Maybe mix in some MTT's with cash games if you want to do that, which could make reading the HOH books to get started a good idea.

And if you are going to play a decent number of MTT's then maybe you want to familiarize yourself a little with the sng concept of ICM, which can help at the final table of MTT's....so then maybe play a few sng's to practice that (but honestly you can study ICM without needing to play sng's).




But I would certainly advise the majority of the playing to be done at cash games. Personally I now spend 90%+ of my poker time at 6max cash games. The rest is playing some MTT's specifically anticipated events and honestly this is probably less than 10% and cash more than 90%.

[Doc T River]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't tell if this is a joke or not.

Assuming it's serious...has your kid asked you for a $1,000 bankroll? Is this something he wants, or you want? Does he like to play HU SNGs?

And finally, am I the only one who notes the irony:
[ QUOTE ]

He gets $1,000 bankroll from me no strings attached.

Please critique my conditions.


[/ QUOTE ]
(Hint: "conditions" is a synonym for "strings")

[/ QUOTE ]

What he means is there are conditions to get the money, but no conditions once the kid gets the money. Understand?

[Doc T River]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the kid sounds like he doesnt need you, and is smart enough to know it

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly the objective behind this project. To get him to a level where he won't need me. What I failed to mention is that this poker thing is just part of a bigger project that hopefully would make him totally independent and successful. Here are the books that I had him read during his senior year and during the summer vacation (I paid him 30 bucks per book on top of his allowance and I believe him that his comprehension rate is at least 90%):

Persuasion:

Maximum Influence by Mortensen

One Minute Salesperson by Johnson

Personal finance:

The Wealthy Barber by Chilton

Young Fabulous and Broke by Suze Orman (video version)

Secrets of the Millionaire Mind by T. Harv Ecker

The 21 Secrets of Self Made Millionaires by Brian Tracy

Entrepreneurship:

E-Myth Revisited by Gerber

Go It Alone by Judson

Cashflow Quadrant by Kiyosaki

Multiple Streams of Income by Robert Allen

Personal Effectiveness:

Focal Point by Brian Tracy

Eat That Frog by Brian Tracy

Self-Help Psychology:

Success Principles by Jack Canfield

Unlimited Power by Anthony Robbins

Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl

Leadership:

One Minute Manager by Blanchard and Johnson

The One Minute Manager Builds a High Performance Team by Blanchard

Who Moved My Cheese by Johnson

Strategy:

The Art of War by Sun Tzu

The Concentrated Essence of Strategy and Tactics by Liddell Hart

Genghis Khan and Sabutai from Great Captains Unveiled (Liddell Hart)

But the reason why this poker project is so important is that it is CLEAR and PRESENT. Most of the above reads would take years to implement while the poker reading and playing project could be implemented as early as next month.Plus, poker can teach him self-discipline, logic, reading situations, the concept of EV, the importance of thinking long term, emotional control, etc.

I thank all of those of you who have given advice. I am definitely adding cash games to his hands on experience pool.The object, really, is to have him have enough knowledge of no limit holdem in all its forms so that if he chooses to, he can integrate poker into his income streams. To make him knowledgeable and competent enough to have poker as a REAL option if he chooses to do so.

As of now, I still have not come up with the proper sequence of books for him to read, and the combination of competitive contexts through which he can learn to apply the knowledge. I'm more confused than ever. So far the first phase looks as follows but it is still not final:

Watch Final Table DVD by Gordon on "beginner's mode", listen to the audio version Little Green Book twice over, then re-watch Final Table DVD but this time on "advanced mode". Finally, have him read the first three chapters of TOP as well as the "Poker and Emotions" section of Inside the Poker Mind.

Second Phase would probably be:

HOH 1, then HOH2, then probably the Largay book.

Third Phase would envolve playing, playing, and playing. Cash games, MTTSNGs, STSNGs (full game), Six handed SNGs, Heads up SNGs. During this stage, he can't decide what to play. I will tell him. Hopefully, you guys can help me decide what competitive contexts and in what order he should play. Cash games first? MTTs second? etc.

The fourth phase would have him exposed to different playing styles: SSII, Making the Final Table, Kill Phil, etc. And general theory books: TOP, NHTP, PNL1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can I call you Daddy?

You paid your son $30 a book ON TOP of his allowance? That is sure to make the kid independent of you. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

He should be reading for the joy of reading, for the joy of learning. Not because daddy is paying him.

Personally, it sounds like you are trying to live through this kid vicariously and trying to mold him into what you wanted to be.

[Point Point]

"Personally, it sounds like you are trying to live through this kid vicariously and trying to mold him into what you wanted to be."

All I'm doing is giving him the most possible number of options. The rest is all up to him. Whether its the priesthood, the military, starting a company, it's all entirely up to him what he wants to become. But he will have a lot of options to choose from.

If you look at the books that he has already read, notice that a lot of the knowledge from all of them can be applied practically to any field. Persuasion, personal effectiveness, strategy, management of teams, etc. Poker would add even more strategy, discipline, long term thinking, math(which he is very strong at), people reading, etc.

Its up to him what he wants to do with the stuff. After this poker project is done, its on to real estate, sales (Dale Carnegie training), internet marketing.

Summer next year, he must leave the house period. I'm not trying to mold him into anything. He can do whatever he wants. And he will have all of the options.

"He should be reading for the joy of reading, for the joy of learning. Not because daddy is paying him."

The whole point is to get the knowledge and skill sets in his brain and behaviors, and that is exactly what's happening. Too late to get it out of his head regardless of how it got put in there to begin with. Kids in school get paid with grades and they study for the grades not the knowledge. But guess what? The knowledge stays and become part of the database inside the head. I just made the rewards extra money not grades. The idea is to have the knowledge inside the head no matter what, at a very young age if possible. Once he joins the workforce or starts a business or joins the Peace Corps, he won't have as much time to study. Better to put in the stuff in the brain before he even gets started.

[Point Point]

Wow! More and more, I'm convinced it should be cash games first, then tournaments. I wonder how the revamped edition of Sklansky's tournament book looks like. I hope it does an even better job of teaching the cash game player how to adapt to tournaments.

Oh, BTW. Your link does not work.

So what is your advice for a cash game no limit holdem reading list? Seems to me like HOH 1 and 2 should still be must reading as it covers a lot of poker environments. What do you think of Largay's book? NLHTP is sounding really good.