40 Buy-in NL Table: Even worth playing?

[lightsout5695]

Hi everyone! I am new to this board, and this is my first post, so I apologize for the length...

I have been playing about 7 months, all NLHE, mostly 1/2 (40 buy in) or 2/3 (100 buy in). For the early months, I really didn't know what I was doing and dropped a lot of money.

I feel like I got my act together, been playing recently with a renewed attitude, and I'm still dropping money.

I am totally at a loss for how to play at these 1/2 tables. I will give you an example of what happens usually. I'll wait for a premium hand, and maybe I'll get AA in the cutoff position. Most everyone will have limped in before me. Maybe I'll have about 35 behind me at this point. I'll raise to 10-12. I'll still end up getting called by 1-2 players, which I don't necessarily mind. But now I am looking at almost 40 in the pot, with about 25 behind me. If action checks to me, I go all in, shoving the 25 into a pot of 40. Unfortunately, both guys will usually call, citing "pot odds". If they are on a premium draw, they aren't necessarily making a bad call. And I will usually get sucked out on. The problem is, I don't know how else to play a hand like AA especially in position in this kind of situation. But then I can't fault a person that might have a nut flush draw for calling, cause he's getting decent pot odds (25 to win 90 or 115 in the above example).

I don't think I'm necessarily playing poorly. Last week, in one session, I played the 2/3 100 buy-in, and lost 280 dollars. I played about 3-4 big pots. Once I had heads up AK v. AQ with an A showing on the flop, all the money went in, and the guy drew a Q on the turn. On another hand, I flopped a set of Kings (I had wired) and someone drew out on me on the river for a gut shot straight. And another hand, I had an overpair to the board, someone called all-in and rivered two-pair. So I felt I played well, yet I couldn't protect my hands!

I am pretty depressed, and am wondering if my game is still the problem, or these kind of low buy in tables are just a bad bet.

Any advice, criticism, etc would be much appreciated. Thank you

[TianYuan]

Uhm, it sounds like it's just variance, shortstacked poker is pretty damn variance heavy I think.. Doesn't sound very fun to play with 20 big blinds tho, but that's another story [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Of course it's pretty much impossible to tell if your game is the problem or not from reading just this one post by you!

[Chicago Twister]

This must be live. Depending on the rake, the game is prb not beatable.

WIth such a small buying the variance is going to be insane. Even still, you should have pushed preflop. Until the game gets deeper your playing a 1-street game mostly.

[lightsout5695]

Thanks for the response, I should have added I only play brick and mortar casinos, if it matters.

Yea, I'm looking at either 20 BBs or 33 BBs in the casino I play at. And I haven't really found something all that different for what I can afford to play. There is a 1/3 game where I can buy in for 300 but that's in a casino that's pretty far off.

I guess the frustrating part is the short stacks people start with in relation to the blinds along with just the smaller amount of money involved gets people to gamble pretty heavily.

And even if I have a big stack, it doesn't really help. Cause I could still face a guy with say 20-30 behind and I won't be able to adequately protect my hands, cause he'll just push his chips all in.

I guess I am wondering at this point if I play the right way, I can get profitable even at these type of tables, orI should just stop playing until I have the type of bankroll where I can go to a game where I Can buy in for 100 or more BBs

[Ranma4703]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the response, I should have added I only play brick and mortar casinos, if it matters.

Yea, I'm looking at either 20 BBs or 33 BBs in the casino I play at. And I haven't really found something all that different for what I can afford to play. There is a 1/3 game where I can buy in for 300 but that's in a casino that's pretty far off.

I guess the frustrating part is the short stacks people start with in relation to the blinds along with just the smaller amount of money involved gets people to gamble pretty heavily.

And even if I have a big stack, it doesn't really help. Cause I could still face a guy with say 20-30 behind and I won't be able to adequately protect my hands, cause he'll just push his chips all in.

I guess I am wondering at this point if I play the right way, I can get profitable even at these type of tables, orI should just stop playing until I have the type of bankroll where I can go to a game where I Can buy in for 100 or more BBs

[/ QUOTE ]
He's putting his chips in behind. Unless you have other, massive, huge holes in your game, you should be making lots of money doing this, just at a very high variance (so you should be comfortable with dropping 10+ buy-ins)

[RAHZero]

You're committing the gambler's fallacy. Just like you can't string together negative EV bets and get a positive EV, you can't string together positive EV bets and get a negative total EV. If you keep making positive EV plays, your EV in the long run will be positive.

[lightsout5695]

Well maybe I'm wrong... but this is the situation I often face...

I can push all in and try to protect a hand like an overpair postflop. Usually it's something like me putting in 20 into a pot of 30. And usually, there are two guys behind me, who'll both call with similar stacks to mine. It seems like if even one of them has say a nut flush draw, they are betting 20 to win 90, which is good odds for them. Going on this logic, unless I am incorrect, I feel there is just no way I can ever make it unprofitable for someone to draw against me with such short stacks.

I guess conversely I will get good odds to draw myself, but this cycle seems like at best I'll just break even

[Ranma4703]

[ QUOTE ]
Well maybe I'm wrong... but this is the situation I often face...

I can push all in and try to protect a hand like an overpair postflop. Usually it's something like me putting in 20 into a pot of 30. And usually, there are two guys behind me, who'll both call with similar stacks to mine. It seems like if even one of them has say a nut flush draw, they are betting 20 to win 90, which is good odds for them. Going on this logic, unless I am incorrect, I feel there is just no way I can ever make it unprofitable for someone to draw against me with such short stacks.

I guess conversely I will get good odds to draw myself, but this cycle seems like at best I'll just break even

[/ QUOTE ]
The both won't have different draws every time. Sometimes, they will be drawing to the same hand, in which case you are a 60-40 favorite (usually) getting 2-1 on your money, sometimes they won't flop a draw and will fold after investing 10$ of their stack, sometimes they will get it in with top pair (and by sometimes, I mean they are never folding it, and you have them drawing poorly). This game is beatable, ignoring rake, by playing tight preflop and getting it in good, so if you are not winning there is a problem with your game. You should post some other hands. Also, if you are just waiting for AA-QQ, AK, the game will not be beatable because your stack is so small in relation to the blinds you will slowly blind out waiting.

[Dire]

How much profit do big overpairs show for short stackers anyhow? I do not short stack, but it seems to me that the most profitable, and an extremely common, situation would be being able to resteal pots preflop. Another being pushing marginal equity postflop with fair amounts of fold equity.

I just can't see sitting around for monsters then trying to get it all in for 15-20BB as being a profitable strategy. Especially once you factor in rake/toke and other playing expenses (transportation/food/gas/etc).

[lightsout5695]

Ranma, I documented several key hands from a rare winning session (albeit small, I won about 120 bucks after buying in for 40) from a couple of weeks ago, I'm sorry, as some details are not that clear cause I wrote this down after I was done playing

1. I checked from the blind with 9-10 offsuit. Flop came 6-7-8 with 2 diamonds. The pot had about as much money in it as I had behind me, so I pushed all in. I got called by 3 people, two who had 9s. The turn was a 10, giving 3 of us the straight. Split pot. I am assuing the other caller was on a diamond draw.

2. I got AA in the SB. There was an initial raise to 4, someone re-raised to 8, someone calls the 8, I re-raised to 24. The initial raiser went all in for about 15, and the other 2 guys called my 24. Flop gave me a set of Aces, I pushed all in with my remaining 50-60 into a pot of about 100. Suprisingly, everyone folded. The guy who was all in didn't outdraw me, took down the pot.

3. I was in the BB with A-2 (Ace of clubs), I called the SB's raise of about 10 (loose call, I'll admit), I think 4 people saw the flop. The flop came K-Q-2 of clubs, giving me a bottom pair with a nut flush draw. The SB came out and massively overbet the pot, going all-in for 90 into a pot of 50ish. I had seen him make this play several times with two pair before, so I figured he had K-Q. I called, and had him covered. Another person went all in with their remaining 15ish dollars.

I turned a 2 for a set of 2s, and that held up against the SB. The other person who had called all in for 15 had the flush at the flop, but I ended up winning quite a bit of money on this hand.

So this is an example of some of the hands I've played