is competition getting too tough to make poker profitable?

[JOHNY CA$H]

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Did people think the influx of fresh meat was never gonna end? It takes 21 years for a player to come of age, 1 or 2 years to ruin him. Players get better, whether they study or not. They develop a feel for the game. They start to get comfortable. They realize it's old hat. One day they wake up and they may be weak/tight or a maniac, but they're no longer really a fish. They've paid their dues and sure, you can take them for some money still. But not like you could in the old days.

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But there is always "fresh meat" coming through. There is always new players ready to donate for the pure enjoyment.

Yes, there are perhaps a larger pool of better players because of the amount of study material out there. But the best players will still be profitable.

What has changeed perhaps is that the mere recreational player (the fish) in the USA deem it too much aggro to put their money on a site now. However, the more serious USA players make a point of finding a way round this.

I don't go with this notion that there were a greater % of USA fish, it is just the fish element no longer bother.

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the U.S sites are DEFINITELY tougher than the mostly euro, non-U.S sites. The difference in aggression is amazing.

[RobNottsUk]

Looking through this thread.

If you are a winning player, ask yourself what do you do to encourage them to pay for their entertainment?

There's far too many idiots, berating them, hurling personal abuse, and generally hammering the Fish with constant aggression.

Fish, play to make hands, have a 'nice' sociable game and obviously they are not playing to try to win money. Getting called idiots and loser's is unlikely to attract and build up the customer base.

Are most net tables going to appeal to the play for fun type of personality?

They want a bit of humour and some fun, not a load of silent Rocks, TAGs and LAGs beating up on them the whole time, with no grace, humour or humility.

So support your local Fish! Before they become an entirely endangered species. Now they have far more good examples to copy, than in old days when being one of the crowd meant playing loose-passively.

[Rek]

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They want a bit of humour and some fun, not a load of silent Rocks, TAGs and LAGs beating up on them the whole time, with no grace, humour or humility.

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This is a very good point. Trouble is, when you are multi-tabling, having some decent banter and a joke can be a little tricky.

Also, we are probably all guilty of berating someone for a dreadful play when they suck out on you. I think we tend to think that all players are seasoned poker players that should know better. Many are just playing the game for pure enjoyment and I very rarely "tap the tank". A simple "well played" is the extent of my frustration when they suck out. Regular players know you are being sarcastic whilst the real fish and very new players think you are being nice. A bit of a win/win. If I am really chilled out I even manage a "good luck guys" and leave gracefully after suck outs.

[RobNottsUk]

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They want a bit of humour and some fun, not a load of silent Rocks, TAGs and LAGs beating up on them the whole time, with no grace, humour or humility.

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This is a very good point. Trouble is, when you are multi-tabling, having some decent banter and a joke can be a little tricky.


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Very true, but sometimes a little goes a long way. Perhaps 1 table less and cultivating the clientelle, might be as profitable?

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Also, we are probably all guilty of berating someone for a dreadful play when they suck out on you. I think we tend to think that all players are seasoned poker players that should know better.

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We should know better than to do that, and when some idiot is berating a Fish, perhaps a few mins of support, and subtle remarks like "you whine cos you lost the pot" and "who won a pot by folding" could keep that Fish sweet and at your table.

En masse, do Winning players, want to keep losers playing poker? Are we going to realise that other players have fun for other reasons than winning.

A losing player, might enjoy it as relaxation, alternative to TV, or to gamble it up. Educating them to their failings and taking personal shots, just will drive them from your table.

[RustyDagger]

I don't know what kind of crazy games there used to be in the "crazy days" - I wasn't present then. However, the stakes I play in at pokerstars ($0.25/.50 NL) are PACKED WITH FISH. Sure every table has 1-3 of those (a bit annoying) multitabling characters, but -those aside- there's plenty of money to be made with proper solid play. I believe it's much tougher just a ladder or two higher.

"Ordinary" people make a deposit of about $50, spend it (see if they get "lucky"), wait a few days and have another $50 go sometime later. Even with a high salary a working man with a family often doesn't want to invest much more than that on staight "gambling".

[jono]

poker is Darwinism in action

[bacats32]

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I don't know what kind of crazy games there used to be in the "crazy days" - I wasn't present then. However, the stakes I play in at pokerstars ($0.25/.50 NL) are PACKED WITH FISH. Sure every table has 1-3 of those (a bit annoying) multitabling characters, but -those aside- there's plenty of money to be made with proper solid play. I believe it's much tougher just a ladder or two higher.

"Ordinary" people make a deposit of about $50, spend it (see if they get "lucky"), wait a few days and have another $50 go sometime later. Even with a high salary a working man with a family often doesn't want to invest much more than that on staight "gambling".

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I stay playing a live game for some of the reasons I have read in this thread. I quote here because I totally agree with you. My only disagreement is the fact that there is people only willing to play for $50. Man trust me there are people playing for $50 or more a day not just every couple and they aren't the ones with a high salary they are the ones with no money putting stuff in hock just to play. The addicts. It is actually kind of sad. But I still take there money. I have to eat.

[Acevader]

I've been playing online for 3-4 years. The standard is soooooooooooooooo much better now it's not even funny. If I knew 3 years ago what I know about poker not it honestly would be a license to print money! I recall those old crypto table when someone that played even two tables at once was a 'mad man' and where 3-bets preflop were unheard of and you could regularly push AI on a river for 2-3x a PSB and expect to be called by a worryingly wide range of hands. It was just crazy what people would play, chase, and pay off with. Then there was draws! Sooooooooo many players would call full PSB on the flop and turn with just a weak flush draw and if they hit they'd bet like 20% of the pot fearing you'd fold! They'd not do this once or twice - they'd do it with EVERY flush draw. People were just bloody clueless - the only problem is that relatively speaking so was I back then; better than them but not as good as I am now. My style these days would simply destroy the tables back in the good old days. Unfortunately I have to work really hard to make money these days - even the fish aren't as daft nowadays. They make exploitable mistakes for sure but they don't make the absolute criminal mistakes of yesteryear.

BTW, I'd say that if you allow me to open up 5 random tables of Full Tilt NL$200 I could within 15 minutes of watching find 3-4 players that would murder the highest stakes games (probably NL$1000 or NL$2000) from 3-4 years ago. There are a lot of players playing very solid 22/18/4 style games that understand all the basic, intermediate and expert level concepts.

[helter skelter]

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Ive only been playing for about 6 months about an hour daily and I am amazed how people say they move up really fast...I started playing on .02/.05 on party with a $75.00 dollar roll and now Im playing at .05/.10 with a mid-300 dollar roll, struggling to move up to the next level via a sloow grind.
Everyone says how these players are easy, yes they make alot mistakes like limping etc, however, its not quick easy money. When a big fish comes to the table everyone tightens up and plays the same game it seems...when he leaves, everyone else leaves too. Another problem is all the small stacks...3/5th of the table all play <50bb its push or fold with them on the flop.

By the way,
http://www.poker-edge.com/whoami.php?name=BigErf

Heres your stats on the poker edge site it says you are a slag which I think is pretty good...

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What's the skinny on this Poker-Edge? This sounds very unethical:

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Join Poker-Edge Today to Hide Your Stats From Other Players and get complete stats on 100+ sites!

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So we have to pay them "protection money" to keep our stats secret? Is this kind of extortion legal?

[Nsight7]

The short answer to your question is no.

The long answer is NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Truthfully, you do have to look a little bit. However, you seem to play a mix of MTTs and SnGs, and both of these forms naturally have high amount of variance. So perhaps you should just compile more stats and find out where you really are.