HU blind battle PF question

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id rather 3-bet J9o than A9o

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Depends on villain but I tend to agree. 3-betting a lot of decent hands as a semibluff against a non SD bound villain is good. Q9, 98s, K7s. Stuff like that. With a more SD bound I villain I tend to 3-bet the hands with pure eq edge more. A9 and stuff like that.

[Apanage]

I 3-bet a huge range against most loose steelers. I don´t really care about equity ranges.
Against some players I 3-bet 40% of my hands.I do it for two reasons.

1. Position almost always makes me a winner against a loose openers hand range.
2. After a while villain changes his opening standards allowing me to keep my BB without playing.

[vmacosta]

"u 3bet when ur ahead and call when ur behind but cant fold. then u mess around at the margins some"

This is generally how I feel about it. In fact I'd rather not even mess around at the margins because I find I screw this up more often than not.

gherig and other hu specialists,
Can you please tell me how much position matters in this case? Fwiw, I find that in a normal hu match where sb=button I will 3-bet when I'm ahead of ~60% of his range whereas when its 6max and BB=button, I will be around 50%.

[Guruman]

just for fun, lets define the top 60%:

It looks like any pair, any A or K, any suited Q or J, any 2 cards with a rank of 7 or higher, any suited connector, any suited one-gapper. That's not precise according to PS, but its a reasonable approximation.

Of course that range skews heavily towards big or coordinated boards, and away from low or uncoordinated ones. Even with the heavy skewing though, villain is going to miss any random board around 2/3s of the time. Stubborn villains can decide to take any pair, any A, and lets say KTo+ to showdown pf. This accounds for 24% of all hands, which adds up to a little more than 1/3 of villain's initial 60% range.

if villain will connect 1/3 of the time and will autosd 1/3 of the time, this of course does not add up to a 2/3 sd ratio because the "connects with the board" estimate overlaps the "sd" estimate. Together they add up to about 50% of hands, which is awfully handy.

really the above is just an illustration to show how difficult it is to keep going postflop after getting threebet pf, because we all know that if we open A5o, get threebet and whiff then we should be looking for ways to move on to the next hand most of the time. This is because a threebet range should include a lot of hands that dominate A5o.

-continuing to ramble-

really the specific reads you should be looking for are the following:
1)how lightly does villain peel the flop after being threebet?
2)is villain capable of postflop bluffs or semibluffs after being threebet?

if villain gets very fit or foldish on the flop after being threeballed you should be threebetting 100% of your non-folded hands.

if villain peels alot then you should generally just call the pf raise and look to valueraise and semibluff raise the turn a lot, and showdown a lot of the rest of your range.

if villain can still checkraise semibluff a postflop street after being threebet pf then you should consider just calling 100% pf in order to keep the size of the pot smaller. this reduces the impact of folding a winner as well as reducing the incentive for your opponent to pull off a complex bluff.

the complex one is if villain will peel lightly on the flop even after being threebet but will not bluff himself postflop. In this case the best strat may be to threebet pf with the intention of checking through the flop and then betting the turn. That may be fps, but then again it may not.

Another question is "what should my fold range be" if i'm going 100% one way or the other?

this is more dependent on your opponent's postlfop play then on his opening range.

if villain gets fit or foldy postflop after being threebet, then you should probably threeball 100% of your hands 100% of the time and follow up on the flop. This inflates the pot and then buys it with a bet often enough to really ruin the guy. FWIW, villains don't tend to stay as fit or foldy as that for very long.

If villain is a maniac who is unafraid to cap with whatever, then you should reduce your range to playable and showdownable postflop hands, and then just call pf - making his bluffs more expensive to him when behind.

if villain will peel flops but wont bluff then you should probably have a range that does key off of his pf range.

i'm done rambling, probly making less sense the more i type. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[vmacosta]

Guruman,
Let's assume the villain is me. In other words, leaky agro player who wins a bit when the games are soft.

It's becoming rare to find an opponent who won't peel with single overcard+bd draws or c/r draws and weaker made hands in blind battles anyhow.

[GoodOL]

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Also, I can find value in just calling with AA and calling flop, calling turn, and calling/raising river (depending on board/opponent).

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wtf. at least make an effort to get value for ur hands.

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I didn't say not to 3bet AA, I simply said that an alternative line can sometimes get more value.

[UtzChips]

I don't believe you find many players that sit there with a chart and open/raise with exactly X% of hands from the small blind when their range is that wide. They are just gambling.

If they are open/raising with around 60% of their hands, I believe you can fold 60% of your big blinds and 3 bet the other 40%.

When you do 3 bet:

-You have him crushed preflop when you're playing the top 50% of your range (10-20%) and he's playing the bottom 33% of his range (40-60).

-You are leading preflop, when you are playing the top 50% of your range (10-20%) and he is playing the middle 1/3 (20-40%) of his range.

-You are approx tied when you are playing the top 50% of your range and he is playing the top 1/3 of his.

-You are ahead preflop when you are playing the bottom 50% of your range (20-40%) and he is playing the bottom 1/3 of his (40-60%)

-You are approx tied preflop when you are playing the bottom 50% of your range (20-40%) and he is playing the middle 1/3 of his range (20-40%).

-You are behind when you are playing the bottom 50% of your range (20-40%) and he is playing the top 1/3 of his (10-20%)

Seems to me like you can afford to give him your big blind 60 out of 100 times, when 40 out of a 100 he is going to be putting in 3 bets preflop and be behind 1/2 of the time, be about even 1/3rd of the time, and ahead only 1/6th of the time when I play a hand.

Yea, I think I would play him h/u all day if he has to open/raise with the top 60% of holdings and I can only play and have to 3 bet preflop with the top 40%.

[Oink]

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I don't believe you find many players that sit there with a chart and open/raise with exactly X% of hands from the small blind when their range is that wide. They are just gambling.

If they are open/raising with around 60% of their hands, I believe you can fold 60% of your big blinds and 3 bet the other 40%.

When you do 3 bet:

-You have him crushed preflop when you're playing the top 50% of your range (10-20%) and he's playing the bottom 33% of his range (40-60).

-You are leading preflop, when you are playing the top 50% of your range (10-20%) and he is playing the middle 1/3 (20-40%) of his range.

-You are approx tied when you are playing the top 50% of your range and he is playing the top 1/3 of his.

-You are ahead preflop when you are playing the bottom 50% of your range (20-40%) and he is playing the bottom 1/3 of his (40-60%)

-You are approx tied preflop when you are playing the bottom 50% of your range (20-40%) and he is playing the middle 1/3 of his range (20-40%).

-You are behind when you are playing the bottom 50% of your range (20-40%) and he is playing the top 1/3 of his (10-20%)

Seems to me like you can afford to give him your big blind 60 out of 100 times, when 40 out of a 100 he is going to be putting in 3 bets preflop and be behind 1/2 of the time, be about even 1/3rd of the time, and ahead only 1/6th of the time when I play a hand.

Yea, I think I would play him h/u all day if he has to open/raise with the top 60% of holdings and I can only play and have to 3 bet preflop with the top 40%.

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LOL!

[Guruman]

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Guruman,
Let's assume the villain is me. In other words, leaky agro player who wins a bit when the games are soft.

It's becoming rare to find an opponent who won't peel with single overcard+bd draws or c/r draws and weaker made hands in blind battles anyhow.

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vma,

if you play like you post then I'd assume you're pretty aggro in general, though not a totally exploitable bluffmonkey and you can find folds when you're beaten.

given that if I were playing you hu or if i anticipated a number of future blind battles with you i'd very likely call somewhere around my top 60-70% and do the following:

-fold flop on big scary boards
-call top pair+ and raise turn (raising river on less coordinated boards like 66T2 or whatever)
-float low uncoordinated boards and bet the turn if checked to (not 100%, probly more like 50%)
-call big draws and raise turn
-call down Ahi through bottom pp (checking through if checked to and sometimes folding the river if i've already called you down very lightly recently) also sometimes I'll raise bottom pr or mid pr if i feel like you're capable of making a fold and I can protect against multiple out draws.
-call mid pr and pps that are between mid and top pr and either raise turn or calldown

this should accomplish a few things:
-encourages you to continue being aggressive with weak hands

since i'll be making a few early exits on scary looking boards, you'll be less inclined to play me like a callingstation fish and more inclined to believe me when i make a call. I'll also be making some turn folds if I was trying to float, which should encourage you to two barrel with foldable hands as well as to respect my turn raises when I put them in. Also, calling pf artificially shrinks the pot size when i fold, making it less of a mistake when i fold a hand in the lead there.

-it creates a predictable flop pattern

On the flop I'll be calling a lot and raising only occasionally. This turns a pfr into an autotwobarrel from you, and if you're twobarrelling 60% of your range then that's good for me if I can still buy folds from you after the second barrel.

-it sets up good turn situations for me and bad one for you

on the turn i'll be valueraising, semibluff raising and free sd raising a lot. This will put you in all kinds of awkward situations with medium made hands and two barrel bluffs. The only hands that are easy to play in this situation are big made hands and autofolds, and this street is really the crux of the call 100% pf strat.

-turn sets up good river sitautions for me

if you just call my turn raise then i'll generally know exactly where i am and can make really good decisions on the river. You'll have to have the balls to threebet bluff or semibluff me on the turn in order to take me out of a comfort zone, and I don't mind encouraging superexpensive bluffs if I can.



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bear in mind that this only makes sense if I anticipate lots of blind battles or if i am in a headsup match. If i'm getting up soon or if we're playing in a lot of multiway limped pots then i'll just threebet for value with a moderate range and call with the rest.

It also is subject to modification as you make adjustments. IMO, the single best adjustment to make against my counterstrategy would be to start limping 100% pf and limpreraising any A, pp, suited connector, and two broadway hand. Then if I don't raise pf you autodonk the flop if you whiff and checkraise if you catch.

[MitchL]

Any A, any K8+, any QT+, any JT+

obv any pair