need a plan vs a 2+2er

[Noam Chomsky]

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Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

68,310 games 0.005 secs 13,662,000 games/sec

Board: Tc 8c Qh

Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied

Hand 0: 42.477% 41.15% 01.33% 28108 908.00 { JcJs }

Hand 1: 57.523% 56.19% 01.33% 38386 908.00 { 88+, AcKc, AQs, ATs, KJs+, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 7c6c, 6c5c, AQo, KQo }

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You must play in some amazingly loose games.

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lol?

[rakes.a.beach]

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Hand 1: 57.523% 56.19% 01.33% 38386 908.00 { 88+, AcKc, AQs, ATs, KJs+, QJs, JTs, T9s, 98s, 7c6c, 6c5c, AQo, KQo }

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You are bluffing when you're check/shoving flop. do you really expect a bunch of worse hands to call?

T9s, JTs, 89s make up a very small part of his calling range. AK is the only real hand I see calling us when behind.

Villain will check behind hands like AT, JT, that we beat. unless villain stabs at every pot, and there's no history in this case, I don't see crai being profitable.

[Noam Chomsky]

you can't be bluffing if no better hand ever folds which is most definitely the case here. just because a limited number of worse hands calls doesn't mean it's not for value.

[my1ifesavins]

you guys don't get in this spot often? whoever was talking about betting the flop because we have FE is definitely being misleading if not completely wrong. FE means we're folding out better hands which will never happen on the flop.we're never folding out better hands so Betting this flop is basically just keeping the betting initiative which leads to us not getting bluffed off the best hand as much by hands with no equity. yes technically we are not betting expecting to get called by worse hands but it is still a value bet. I call this denying "bluff equity" if you will.

I'm kinda confusing myself right now so hopefully you guys can help me sort out my thoughts. betting the flop decreases the likelihood that he will bluff w/ hands that have very little equity. should this lean us towards betting or checking? on one hand if we c/c we get more money in w/ better equity but we're most likely going to have to fold anyway on the turn/river since he's going to fire when we check to him. this lets him make more money with hands that have less equity. however if we b/f he will not bluff us off when we have very very good equity. we will only get bluffed when he has decent equity in the pot anyway. which is more important here?

[rakes.a.beach]

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you can't be bluffing if no better hand ever folds which is most definitely the case here. just because a limited number of worse hands calls doesn't mean it's not for value.

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and just because no better hand every folds doesn't make it NOT a bluff.

IE: you shoved on the river with air putting villain on small pocket pair.. He's a donk and called you. That'd be a bluff even though donk was never folding any part of his range that got there on the river, say, on a KKKAQ board.

[Noam Chomsky]

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you can't be bluffing if no better hand ever folds which is most definitely the case here. just because a limited number of worse hands calls doesn't mean it's not for value.

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and just because no better hand every folds doesn't make it NOT a bluff.

IE: you shoved on the river with air putting villain on small pocket pair.. He's a donk and called you. That'd be a bluff even though donk was never folding any part of his range that got there on the river, say, on a KKKAQ board.

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a small pair beats air on that board. you're hoping to fold out better.

[rakes.a.beach]

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you can't be bluffing if no better hand ever folds which is most definitely the case here. just because a limited number of worse hands calls doesn't mean it's not for value.

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and just because no better hand every folds doesn't make it NOT a bluff.

IE: you shoved on the river with air putting villain on small pocket pair.. He's a donk and called you. That'd be a bluff even though donk was never folding any part of his range that got there on the river, say, on a KKKAQ board.

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a small pair beats air on that board. you're hoping to fold out better.

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you defined bluff as folding better hands, so I gave you an example that a bluff never folds a better hand.

[Noam Chomsky]

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you can't be bluffing if no better hand ever folds which is most definitely the case here. just because a limited number of worse hands calls doesn't mean it's not for value.

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and just because no better hand every folds doesn't make it NOT a bluff.

IE: you shoved on the river with air putting villain on small pocket pair.. He's a donk and called you. That'd be a bluff even though donk was never folding any part of his range that got there on the river, say, on a KKKAQ board.

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a small pair beats air on that board. you're hoping to fold out better.

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you defined bluff as folding better hands, so I gave you an example that a bluff never folds a better hand.

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no you didn't. you gave me an example of trying to bluff the wrong opponent. Surely the vast majority of people you face will fold the small pair there.