Nonstandard with TPTK?

[Nate.]

Commerce 20-40. My first session ever.

LMP limps. He's loose and passive on every street. I raise the hijack next in with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. A 2+2 lurker -- generally a little too passive and tight, but a clear winner in the game -- 3-bets out of the BB. LMP calls and I call.

Flop Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. BB bets, LMP calls, I raise.

A couple things:

1) I think the standard line here is to call and raise a safe turn. But against this particular lineup, (a) LMP is loose enough that I have more equity than it usually would in a three-way pot, and (b) I think that a thinking BB will have a very hard time not leading a safe turn, so I'm not going to lose action by raising now. (My hand range, from her perspective, should include enough big-trump-no-pair hands that she can't let blank turns check through.)

Is this thinking reasonable? Lots of cards kill my hand, but I have >1/3 equity in the pot, and I don't lose any playing advantages later (in fact, I might induce some FTOP mistakes on the turn). Am I missing something?

2) Results won't clarify much in this case, but it also won't hurt to post them. BB called, LMP 3-bet, and I folded. I'm always open to comments, but both physical reads and LMP's betting tendencies made this decision very clear. (And even if LMP is misreading his hand or something I still have to worry about BB.)

--Nate

[poker1O1]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that a thinking BB will have a very hard time not leading a safe turn, so I'm not going to lose action by raising now.

[/ QUOTE ]
so you're raising the flop expecting BB to lead the turn?

[Nate.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that a thinking BB will have a very hard time not leading a safe turn, so I'm not going to lose action by raising now.

[/ QUOTE ]
so you're raising the flop expecting BB to lead the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's probable. BB can also checkraise the turn with a worse hand, trying to shut out LMP's likely garbage (not that this would always be the best play).

BTW, if you're skeptical, you're in good company, because a very good player thought, over the table, that calling + coming alive on the turn was better.

--Nate

[cgrohman]

I like this a lot. I'll explain why eventually.

[twinfan]

I agree with poker101. BB in my opinion if just calls the flop will not lead the turn. If anything BB 3 bets your raise than bets out on the turn.

Love your fold btw when limp back 3 bets. I would have to put him on a flsuh, possibly two pair

[rafiki]

Good thread. I know I'm personally still living in "raise the turn" mode myself. I just don't have the hand reading skills to understand where the 3rd raise on the flop will put me. With AA, KK, QQ, TT, Ac, JcJ, AxKc, made flush, QT, AcQ , KcQ, all as holdings for villain (and then obviously under pairs we currently beat), I found when I raised the flop and called the reraise,I was basically folding to half the deck on the turn. I got tired of always having to fold after putting in flop bets, so I just switched lines. I also found it helped me push some pretty strong hands into call down mode (like say KK with no clubs), and I'd frequently get a cheaper draw at 5 outs to beat him. I think I play KK no clubs the same way. I'd be curious to hear from people if that's also incorrect (not jamming the flop with a non club K)

[bugstud]

nate, against your player description, I'm not a big fan of my hand right now. Not really sure what this means from you, exactly, but if he can't have AQ/99 and whatnot here...

[Howard Beale]

I don't know what's 'standard' but in a 3-way hand w/ the players you describe I'd rather raise the flop on that board. I just think it plays better. The flop is dangerous for you and a flop raise will sometimes win it right there, it might fold one of the players, 'freeze' and scare the other, and allow you to win w/ a turn bet regardless of what comes. That's why I like playing live. I can see the reactions of the other players. This is also my personal preference which I've found works for me so I've laid out my thoughts but I look forward to other perspectives.

Good fold, btw, and another reason I like raising this type of flop 3-ways. It's cheaper. You shook the info out of the loose guy and probably saved some money.

[Nate.]

HB --

Thanks for the input. I'm not sure that I'd make the fold against everyone, but this guy had the goods when he came alive, and he also gave the "gotcha!" table-slam when he three-bet it. So I was pretty darn sure I was drawing to runners.

--Nate

[Howard Beale]

[ QUOTE ]
HB --

Thanks for the input. I'm not sure that I'd make the fold against everyone, but this guy had the goods when he came alive, and he also gave the "gotcha!" table-slam when he three-bet it. So I was pretty darn sure I was drawing to runners.

--Nate

[/ QUOTE ]

YW.

These sorts of situations are the reason I gave up online play. It just wasn't the game for me and I admit it. I'm more of a 'feel' player and I've got to be able to see my opponents and get an idea of how they play. It's incredible the amount of info that's given away by live players.

OTOH, it was the 'passive on every street' part that made me say 'good fold'. That 'gotcha table-slam' is sometimes a bad player's 'I'm not going to take this anymore and RAISE these bastards w/ my K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]'. Still, even if that was his hand you've got to fade the turn, river and the BB so 'good fold'.