raising the turn for a free showdown or for value?

[knockonwood]

Raising the turn can be for value or for a free showdown or semi-bluff. I understand that when we are raising the turn for value, we need to have 66% equity (if 3bet) and we need to bet the river.

I'm still not 100% on this concept and would like to see some examples of the differences between the value raise and the fsd raise.

Also, could someone list the conditions that need to be met for the value raise and fsd raise to occur?

[Xylocain]

Posting pretty blind here ... [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

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Raising the turn can be for value or for a free showdown or semi-bluff. I understand that when we are raising the turn for value, we need to have 66% equity (if 3bet) and we need to bet the river.

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I dont think this is correct. The 66% number applies to reopening the betting HU on the river with a strong hand that you intend to call with. On the turn you have implied river odds if you have outs so you dont need to be ahead as often as 66%.

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I'm still not 100% on this concept and would like to see some examples of the differences between the value raise and the fsd raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a FSDr is a raise in position when you think you have some fold equity with a hand that has show down value but have outs when behind. (TPNK with a 4-flush).

You can also do a FSDr when you suspect your opponent is semi bluffing to charge his draw since he will not call your value bet on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, could someone list the conditions that need to be met for the value raise and fsd raise to occur?

[/ QUOTE ]

A value raise on the turn should be as simple as

equity>(1/players calling)

[knockonwood]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, could someone list the conditions that need to be met for the value raise and fsd raise to occur?

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A value raise on the turn should be as simple as

equity>(1/players calling)

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Sorry, I worded that pretty bad. I was more referring to the conditions that need to be met for the fsd raise.

[kbdunn]

There are some conditions...these just quickly off the top of my head.

-Ability to fold a better hand

-Ability for hero to fold to a 3 bet (it is very important to know the relative 3 betting range of your villain. Easiest to peg are the nits who only 3 bet OOP with the nuts. You dont want to outplay yourself and fold in position when fired back by an aggro villain who will 3 bet bottom two on a straight board, etc.)

-Room for improvement of hero's hand (Set versus a possible flush betting into you, classic example, you gain a bet if improved to boat, however this doesnt work if villain will 3 bet with a large range of hands such as sub-nut flushes, etc.)

-Significant SD value of hero's hand (you are calling a bet on the river, so on some boards/villains it is logical to raise for FSD)

[LateFlag]

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-Ability for hero to fold to a 3 bet

-Room for improvement of hero's hand (Set versus a possible flush betting into you, classic example,

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Note that these are contradictory. If you have a bunch of outs, then you won't be able to fold to a 3-bet.

Personally, I don't use the free showdown play very often anymore, and when I try it, it seldom seems to "work." People very rarely fold anything to it, at least in my experience. It's surprising how often I'll see players with TAG stats call turn raises with something like middle pair and an overcard. This is obviously speculation, but I would guess that most of the folds I've induced with this play have probably been air.

When I do run this play, I like to have a hand I can easily fold to further aggression. For example, I open-raise with 88 from MP or something, and BB calls. The flop is T74 or something similar, and he weak leads. I'll often call this flop and raise any turn, and this will in fact often result in a fold, but that's not because villain is ditching his AT; it's because he had crap and decided to take a shot at me on a bad-looking board.

[Sushiglutton]

There are two types of FSD raises:

1) You have a strong draw with show-down value

Example: A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], on K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

2) You have a mediocer made hand with very few outs (and thus easy to fold versus 3-bet)

55 on K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]


You should not raise with medium draws say 4-5 outs because if you are re-raised you need to fold (if pot is reasonably big), but it hurts.

[JJack]

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55 on K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]


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Calling this flop with pocet 55, or call at turn after donk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Unless its TAG's blind war I think, otherwise fold turn.

[bennyhana]

here's one.

villian is 16/2/3

Full Tilt 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

River: (7.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 7.25 BB

[maverickai]

[ QUOTE ]
here's one.

villian is 16/2/3

Full Tilt 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

River: (7.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 7.25 BB

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benny, I would like to understand the rationale behind the line you took in this hand.
Flop:
Why didn't you raise on the flop, since you had top pair? Cos you might have only a slim equity here, and prefer to raise the turn when a harmless card comes?

Turn:
I dun understand why this raise. Bluff-raise that you have made a flush? Villian has a 3 for his postflop aggro stats, would bluff-raise be +EV? I dun see it as a semi bluff too, as you have too little outs to make it a semi bluff. Furthermore, it's unlikely villian will be folding.

River:
I understand, given the K on board, it's better to check.

one of the problems I have understanding is the 'free showdown' concept. What is the general criteria of going for a free showdown? When you have 2nd best hand, but still some chance of winning?

[bennyhana]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop:
Why didn't you raise on the flop, since you had top pair? Cos you might have only a slim equity here, and prefer to raise the turn when a harmless card comes?

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Yes, my thought was to raise a turn blank, but then I thought I might try a more passive flop line and raise any turn card. There had been a lot of donks and I'd been folding after raising preflop a ton.

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Turn:
I dun understand why this raise. Bluff-raise that you have made a flush? Villian has a 3 for his postflop aggro stats, would bluff-raise be +EV? I dun see it as a semi bluff too, as you have too little outs to make it a semi bluff. Furthermore, it's unlikely villian will be folding.

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Good analysis. My turn raise was for a free SD/bluff. It was the last money I was putting in the pot. If he 3's the turn/donks the river I'm gone.

I didn't post this hand thinking I was right. It was more of a question post.