PASSAMAN POST #666. BBV 10 COMMANDMENTS

[frotteur]

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Passaman: By your specious argumentation (no pun intended) and the lack of knowledge you're displaying on the subject of evolution, I have a strong suspicion that the reading material you've been exposed to have titles similar to the two books you referenced in regards to the origins of the universe ("The Creator and the Cosmos" and "The Fingerprint of God.")

Without having read the books, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume they contain little more than pseudo-science and cherry-picked facts, designed to cater to a Christian audience.

I'd suggest maybe branching out a little, and treat the science in books with "God" or "Creator" in their titles with a modicum of skepticism.

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That limb you went out on is a bit tenuous. The two books I referenced are written by Dr. Hugh Ross, an astrophysicist and cosmologist at Cal Tech, one of the most respected in the nation in his field. And his books are specifically designed to reach a non-Christian audience. They are not evangelistic in scope, but uses authentic science to prove that "old earth" is compatible with what the bible says in the creation narrative, and to show that the universe was designed by a Designer.

Hugh Ross launched his career at age seven when he went to the library to find out why stars are hot. Physics and astronomy captured his curiosity and never let go. At age seventeen he was the youngest person yet to serve as director of observations for Vancouver's Royal Astronomical Society. With the help of a provincial scholarship and a National Research Council (NRC) of Canada fellowship, he completed his undergraduate degree in physics (University of British Columbia) and graduate degrees in astronomy (University of Toronto). The NRC also sent him to the United States for postdoctoral studies. At Caltech he researched quasars, some of the most distant and ancient objects in the universe.

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Hugh Norman Ross (born July 24, 1945) is a Canadian-born Old Earth creationist and Christian apologist. An astronomer by training, he has established his own ministry called Reasons To Believe that promotes a form of Old Earth creationism known as progressive creationism. Ross accepts the scientific evidence of the age of the earth and the age of the universe, but he rejects evolution and abiogenesis as explanations for the history and origin of life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Ross_(creationist)

[DannyOcean_]

passaman,

I haven't read this whole trainwreck yet but

A. It wasn't funny at all, but was vaguely insulting to all of bbv/bbv4l

B. You come off as hugely condescending and if you didn't mean it that way you just suck at writing/humor

In commandment #1, stop making yourself out to be such a victim. no one cares. If it was an attempt at humor, again, you suck at both writing and humor, and just sound whiny.

In point #2, you obviously have built up resentment towards younger, successful poker players whether you admit it or not. Guess what? I'm smarter than you, stronger, and can pick up hotter women. It's ok, there are people who could beat me at all three games as well, but i don't call them geeky internet kids and be really passive-aggressive about it. Stop whining.

and so on for the other points. I assume the thread has turned into a god/no god evolution/no evolution Jesus wasnt real yes he was mess. carry on.

[Passaman]

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Passaman: By your specious argumentation (no pun intended) and the lack of knowledge you're displaying on the subject of evolution, I have a strong suspicion that the reading material you've been exposed to have titles similar to the two books you referenced in regards to the origins of the universe ("The Creator and the Cosmos" and "The Fingerprint of God.")

Without having read the books, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume they contain little more than pseudo-science and cherry-picked facts, designed to cater to a Christian audience.

I'd suggest maybe branching out a little, and treat the science in books with "God" or "Creator" in their titles with a modicum of skepticism.

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That limb you went out on is a bit tenuous. The two books I referenced are written by Dr. Hugh Ross, an astrophysicist and cosmologist at Cal Tech, one of the most respected in the nation in his field. And his books are specifically designed to reach a non-Christian audience. They are not evangelistic in scope, but uses authentic science to prove that "old earth" is compatible with what the bible says in the creation narrative, and to show that the universe was designed by a Designer.

Hugh Ross launched his career at age seven when he went to the library to find out why stars are hot. Physics and astronomy captured his curiosity and never let go. At age seventeen he was the youngest person yet to serve as director of observations for Vancouver's Royal Astronomical Society. With the help of a provincial scholarship and a National Research Council (NRC) of Canada fellowship, he completed his undergraduate degree in physics (University of British Columbia) and graduate degrees in astronomy (University of Toronto). The NRC also sent him to the United States for postdoctoral studies. At Caltech he researched quasars, some of the most distant and ancient objects in the universe.

[/ QUOTE ]


Hugh Norman Ross (born July 24, 1945) is a Canadian-born Old Earth creationist and Christian apologist. An astronomer by training, he has established his own ministry called Reasons To Believe that promotes a form of Old Earth creationism known as progressive creationism. Ross accepts the scientific evidence of the age of the earth and the age of the universe, but he rejects evolution and abiogenesis as explanations for the history and origin of life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Ross_(creationist)

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Exactly! A Christian with perfect scientific credentials who teaches that the earth is 7 billion years old and that the universe has a definite design. Thanks for the support!

[SABR42]

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why aren't there tens of thousands of species that are at varying stages between, say, lizards and birds?

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This question shows you really don't understand evolution.

Evolution is constantly branching. The reason you don't see intermediates between lizards and birds is because their ancestors diverged more than 150 million years ago. In short, all "intermediate" forms have all died out and no longer exist. What you are left with are "end-points" that have seperated long ago, but were connected in the past.

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But if the animals were being created on a 'day' (i.e. from the creation account in Genesis, with 'day' being a period of time of millions of years) and species were going extinct with God then creating more.

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There is simply no way you can "excuse" Genesis using the "day = millions of years" idea because the events are still out of order.

Genesis actually states that there were plants, before the SUN. Next...

[frotteur]

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Passaman: By your specious argumentation (no pun intended) and the lack of knowledge you're displaying on the subject of evolution, I have a strong suspicion that the reading material you've been exposed to have titles similar to the two books you referenced in regards to the origins of the universe ("The Creator and the Cosmos" and "The Fingerprint of God.")

Without having read the books, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume they contain little more than pseudo-science and cherry-picked facts, designed to cater to a Christian audience.

I'd suggest maybe branching out a little, and treat the science in books with "God" or "Creator" in their titles with a modicum of skepticism.

[/ QUOTE ]

That limb you went out on is a bit tenuous. The two books I referenced are written by Dr. Hugh Ross, an astrophysicist and cosmologist at Cal Tech, one of the most respected in the nation in his field. And his books are specifically designed to reach a non-Christian audience. They are not evangelistic in scope, but uses authentic science to prove that "old earth" is compatible with what the bible says in the creation narrative, and to show that the universe was designed by a Designer.

Hugh Ross launched his career at age seven when he went to the library to find out why stars are hot. Physics and astronomy captured his curiosity and never let go. At age seventeen he was the youngest person yet to serve as director of observations for Vancouver's Royal Astronomical Society. With the help of a provincial scholarship and a National Research Council (NRC) of Canada fellowship, he completed his undergraduate degree in physics (University of British Columbia) and graduate degrees in astronomy (University of Toronto). The NRC also sent him to the United States for postdoctoral studies. At Caltech he researched quasars, some of the most distant and ancient objects in the universe.

[/ QUOTE ]


Hugh Norman Ross (born July 24, 1945) is a Canadian-born Old Earth creationist and Christian apologist. An astronomer by training, he has established his own ministry called Reasons To Believe that promotes a form of Old Earth creationism known as progressive creationism. Ross accepts the scientific evidence of the age of the earth and the age of the universe, but he rejects evolution and abiogenesis as explanations for the history and origin of life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Ross_(creationist)

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Exactly! A Christian with perfect scientific credentials who teaches that the earth is 7 billion years old and that the universe has a definite design. Thanks for the support!

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and you wonder why people don't like you

[SABR42]

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Exactly! A Christian with perfect scientific credentials who teaches that the earth is 7 billion years old and that the universe has a definite design. Thanks for the support!

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ZZZZzzzzZZZZZZzzzzZZZZZZzzzzzzz...

Yet another non-biologist who's clueless about evolution.

But let's play along with this Hugh Ross guy. This is taken straight from the wikipedia page that was linked:

Ross's explanation of Genesis 1 is:

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep." (Earth's early atmosphere blocked the sunlight.)
Day one: "Let there be light." (As the atmosphere changed, the Sun's light began to shine through.)
Day two: God separates the waters above from the waters below. (The evaporation and rain cycle began.)
Day three: Dry land appears, then plants appear. (Land rose from the ocean, then plants appeared.)
Day four: Sun, moon, and stars appear. (The changing atmosphere finally reveals the Sun, moon, and stars.)
Day five: Sea creatures (up to and including sea mammals), then birds appear.
Day six: Animals (Ross says these are land mammals), then humans appear.

So let me get this straight, the Sun's light appears on day 1, but the Sun itself only appears on day 4? LOL nonsense.

Plants appear on day 3 (before the Sun!!!), but sea animals appear on day 5? This is once again BS. Sea animals are much older than land plants.

Also, "sea mammals" appear before "land mammals"? More BS. Ceteceans and pinipeds are relatively recent evolutionary clades. Mammals evolved on land, and some groups returned to the sea later on.

[Passaman]

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why aren't there tens of thousands of species that are at varying stages between, say, lizards and birds?

[/ QUOTE ]
This question shows you really don't understand evolution.

Evolution is constantly branching. The reason you don't see intermediates between lizards and birds is because their ancestors diverged more than 150 million years ago. In short, all "intermediate" forms have all died out and no longer exist. What you are left with are "end-points" that have seperated long ago, but were connected in the past.

[ QUOTE ]
But if the animals were being created on a 'day' (i.e. from the creation account in Genesis, with 'day' being a period of time of millions of years) and species were going extinct with God then creating more.

[/ QUOTE ]
There is simply no way you can "excuse" Genesis using the "day = millions of years" idea because the events are still out of order.

Genesis actually states that there were plants, before the SUN. Next...

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If you're going to besmirch my scientific knowledge, then your biblical knowledge should also be fair game. Are you sure that it says that plants were created before the sun? Or maybe the "let there be light" thingy on Day 1 was, perhaps, the Big Bang, the slow development of the universe, and the resulting events that led to our solar system some 10 billion years later, including our own sun? Are you so sure that the words in English in Genesis 1, where we see the Sun arrive on Day 4 isn't actually explainable through science that the atmospheric conditions cleared to such a point that we begun to have an occasionally transparent atmosphere as opposed to a translucent one, as science already knows happened? Might an ancient call one event "let there be light" and another event "the sun to rule the day"? Do you know what the Bible says beyond a surface reading?

Read this, if you so desire:

Creation Model Overview

The frame of reference in Genesis 1:1 is the cosmos. God declares that He brought into existence the entire physical universe—matter, energy, and all the space-time dimensions associated with matter and energy. Einstein's theory of general relativity tells us that the cause of the universe creates it independently (i.e. from outside) of matter, energy, and the space-time dimensions along which matter and energy are distributed. (Observations now securely establish the reliability of general relativity.)

Genesis 1:2 explicitly shifts the frame of reference, the narrator's vantage point, to the surface of Earth above the water but below the cloud layer. That verse describes the initial conditions of primordial Earth: its surface was dark, covered with water, empty of life, and unfit for life. With the frame of reference and the initial conditions for the six creation days thus established, a straightforward chronology for the creation days' events unfolds. That chronology is as follows:

Creation, by fiat miracle, of the entire physical universe (space-time dimensions, matter, energy, galaxies, stars, planets, etc.)
planet Earth singled out for a sequence of creation miracles. At its beginning, Earth is empty of life and unfit for life; interplanetary debris and Earth's primordial atmosphere prevent the light of the sun, moon, and stars from reaching the planet's surface
clearing of the interplanetary debris and partial transformation of the earth's atmosphere so that light from the heavenly bodies now penetrates to the surface of Earth's ocean
formation of water vapor in the troposphere under conditions that establish a stable water cycle
formation of continental land masses and ocean basins
production of plants on the continental land masses
transformation of the atmosphere from translucent to occasionally transparent. Sun, Moon, planets, and stars now can be seen from the vantage point of Earth's surface
production of swarms of small sea animals.
creation of sea mammals and birds
creation of three specialized kinds of land mammals: a) short-legged land mammals, b) long-legged land mammals that are easy to tame, and c) long-legged land mammals that are difficult to tame—all three specifically designed to cohabit with humans
creation of the human species
Many factors work to limit large animals' capacity for natural-process change. These same factors make large animals especially vulnerable to rapid extinction. The seven most significant factors are these:

their relatively small population levels
their long generation spans (the time between birth and the ability to give birth)
their low numbers of progeny produced per adult
their high complexity of morphology and biochemistry
their enormous body sizes
their specialized food supplies
their relatively advanced cultural and social structures
These factors limit the capacity of animals not only to change through natural selection and mutations but also to adapt to environmental changes. A fundamental problem biologists observe is that deleterious mutations vastly outnumber beneficial mutations (by anywhere from 10,000 to 1 up to 10,000,000 to 1). Thus, a species needs an enormous population, a short generation time, and a small body size if it's to survive long enough to benefit from mutations. Deleterious mutations and environmental stresses drive most animal species to extinction.

Crude mathematical models indicate that a species capable of significant evolutionary advance rather than doomed to eventual extinction, must have a population of one quadrillion individuals, a generation time of three months, and a body size of one centimeter. These conclusions are confirmed by field observations.

Genesis offers this explanation for the survival of large animals: God repeatedly replaced extinct species with new ones. In most cases, the new species were different from the previous ones because God was changing Earth's geology, biodeposits, and biology, step by step, in preparation for His ultimate creation on Earth—the human race.

The many "transitional" forms seen in the fossil record suggest that God performed more than just a few creative acts here and there, letting natural evolution fill in the rest. Rather, God was involved and active in creation of new species.

What we can deduce from these and other findings is that God created humanity at the precise moment in Earth's history that would provide for us the maximum possible resources. He has told us to use these rich resources wisely so as to fulfill His purpose before the window of life's survival time closes. Because of His provision, humans need spend only the briefest possible time in this creation preparing for eternity in the far superior new creation to come.

We can reflect on many more reasons than these few for God's step-by-step creation. Some are discussed below. Others may be found in my book, The Genesis Question.

Testing the Creation Model

The unique beauty of this biblical creation model is its ability to predict with accuracy advancing scientific discovery. This ability to predict is the hallmark of any reliable theory. By contrast, Darwinian evolution, chaos theory, and six-consecutive-24-hour-creation-day creationism fail to predict and instead contradict the growing body of data. This summary lists just 20 of the numerous successful predictions made by the Reasons To Believe model.

transcendent creation event
cosmic fine-tuning
fine-tuning of the earth's, solar system's, and Milky Way Galaxy's characteristics
rapidity of life's origin
lack of inorganic kerogen
extreme biomolecular complexity
Cambrian explosion
missing horizontal branches in the fossil record
placement and frequency of "transitional forms" in the fossil record
fossil record reversal
frequency and extent of mass extinctions
recovery from mass extinctions
duration of time windows for different species
frequency, extent, and repetition of symbiosis
frequency, extent, and repetition of altruism
speciation and extinction rates
recent origin of humanity
huge biodeposits
Genesis' perfect fit with the fossil record
molecular clock rates
© Reasons To Believe, 2000

[Spechel EDD]

i didnt read this thread past 15 posts. can i get a summary

[The Man Mulcahey]

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i didnt read this thread past 15 posts. can i get a summary

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[Passaman]

http://www.reasons.org/resources/apo...ne/index.shtml