Plz don't puke on my AK thread. :)

Alexost · #1 08-12-2007, 11:44 PM

Did I muppet the turn and river play? It seemed to get pretty sticky on turn and river with villain taking all my action.

Need some advice on this one. Thanks.

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB raises, UTG folds, MP2 folds, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (10.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB

Alexost · #2 08-13-2007, 12:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Did I muppet the turn and river play? It seemed to get pretty sticky on turn and river with villain taking all my action.

Need some advice on this one. Thanks.

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, BB raises, UTG folds, MP2 folds, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (10.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, can someone provide an explanation on how this hand was affected by the relative position of each player?

Thanks.

kerowo · #3 08-13-2007, 12:08 AM

Without reads on this guy the 3-bet after the c/r on the flop isn't the best way to spend your money. It sure feels like he has tptk beat, but because of how coordinated the board is I would probably end up calling down.

Position in this hand just served to drive out UTG and MP2 when they may have called one the flop, so if the BB is playing this way with a set that's bad, with an iffy draw maybe not so much. What about the position are you puzzled about?

Alexost · #4 08-13-2007, 12:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Without reads on this guy the 3-bet after the c/r on the flop isn't the best way to spend your money. It sure feels like he has tptk beat, but because of how coordinated the board is I would probably end up calling down.

Position in this hand just served to drive out UTG and MP2 when they may have called one the flop, so if the BB is playing this way with a set that's bad, with an iffy draw maybe not so much. What about the position are you puzzled about?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I know basically what position is, that the player acting last has more information, and should be able to make better decisions. I know that generally the later your pr-flop starting position, the wider range of hands you can play, because you'll see what others do before you have to make your decision.

What I don't know, is how to use position to choose how to continue playing hands I feel may be marginal, against a smaller number of opponents, or a single opponent.

I've seen comments to the effect that some people may play certain hands with position, that they would not have played if they were out of position, and don't really know what that situation would look like.

Gib · #5 08-13-2007, 12:35 AM

meh, just calling down from the flop raise is weak.

I play it the same without a read.

Point Blank · #6 08-13-2007, 12:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
meh, just calling down from the flop raise is weak.

I play it the same without a read.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah ...
BB's check raise looks weak. Most likely top pair but weaker kicker (or A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ... or a couple of other flush-sd draws with mid cards)

i 3bet and call down too

00Snitch · #7 08-13-2007, 12:46 AM

I play it the same. :-\

The thing I hate about this is, I definatly 3-bet BBs raise because I feel like he could do this with lots of hands we beat like 8x and 5x, some PPs and A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x:heart. When he caps, I have to seriously discount the 8x and 5x hands leaving us facing something like A8/5, maybe 85 becaues he was bb, A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x:heart or a set.

Against that range, we are only ahead of A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x:heart. If we look at the rest of those hands, it looks like:

A5/8 - 12 combos, 3 outs
85 - 9 combos, 5 outs
88/55 - 6 combos, 0 outs.

So, being that there is a fairly good chance we will have to call a turn and river bet, when we are looking at calling the flop cap, we are getting effective odds of something like 1:3.5 to call down, so we need to be good, or improve to be good, around 30% of the time to call this down.

I don't really know where I'm going with this... [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

ThierryHenry · #8 08-13-2007, 01:20 AM

I play the same way. You're probably beat, but he could be cr'ing a weaker ace. The pots too big to fold after the flop imo.

kerowo · #9 08-13-2007, 07:43 AM

Did I miss the OPs read on this guy that he will c/r with middle or third pair against a prf on an ace high board? I'd love it if he is stupid enough to c/r with a frush draw or weak ace but this is two pair or better a lot.

Fantam · #10 08-13-2007, 08:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]

A5/8 - 12 combos, 3 outs
85 - 9 combos, 5 outs
88/55 - 6 combos, 0 outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against A5 you have 6 outs on the flop. (another 8 would
counterfeit your opponent's hand)

On the turn, you have 9 outs against A5, 6 outs against A8 and 8 outs against 85.

I am inclined to agree with Kerowo. Without a read to indicate otherwise, it would seem more likely for villain to have 2 pair or a set on the flop, than a weaker Ace, draw or some combination of the latter.

The hidden outs help OP chances of winning if villain does have 2 pair.

So, I think that I prefer calling down from the flop c/r as opposed to 3-betting.