Stud8 - Is this Collusion?

[electrical]

When I use the term "cooperative betting," I mean making a play because your play allows another player in position to make a play that will increase your expectation. Getting a draw in the middle for multiple raises is one example, but betting so the next player can raise and face the field with two bets is another.

In stud, I often bet into a probable better hand if the better hand is likely to raise and force draws behind him to fold. I'm not betting because my hand is best, but because my opponent and I both figure to do better if the pot is heads-up.

In the hand above, the c/r villain has a pair and a low draw, and his 4s block straights for the other villain, with whom he would like to contest the whole pot. When V1 bets, it might very well be with the expectation V2 will raise, and since Hero has no scoop potential, he is forced to fold a better high hand, conceding half the pot to one of the villains, who now get to fight over the whole pot instead of just the low half. This looks pretty normal to me.

If this were actual collusion, I would expect one of them to just fold the pot to the other once it was heads-up. In a live game this is less likely because it arouses suspicion and villains can just combine their bankrolls in the car on the way home. Online, it's not that easy.

[SCSTWG]

During the course of this hand when he makes the check raise on 5th street, you may have to consider that he has trip 4's and was waiting until it was a full bet to get max value. I actually like his raise in this spot because you showed weakness on 5th with your check and he is figuring if you checked you are not calling 2 bets. He then has a decent low draw and is probably in front for high. I don't see any collusion in this at all.

[SapphireMoon]

Let me guess Pokerstars or Full Tilt?
(seems like same random generator with different skin)

Basically you have two Donks in the hand - collusion nope.

Word to the wise play close attention to hands played previously especially at Pokerstars where miracles happen and alot of Bingo/Slot Machine players are playing lately in SHL.

The guy with 44 is a Fish who more than likely plays every hand and this is obvious by his starters Q74 all off - not that suited would have been a real imrpovement (this Twit called on third in first position and calls a raise from behind!), if he were a real player and had a real low hand or hidden pocket pair, he would have bet the 44 on turn - predicting that you would raise if you had aces or fold if you had a low that bricked - thus putting pressure on BI to fold or react in any event.

Also if BI had anything he would have raised your bet on 4th to put pressure on the 44 and to find out if you are bluffing aces with a broken low draw.

So now you know they have NOTHING.

So on fifth - the check seems fine given boards but I would be suspicious of Donk 1 and Donk 2 - Seriously if you're BI would you check call a wheel draw (or any low) when you have two callers who on the surface either bricked or have high draws? Please! He's on a freeroll if you two are on high draws.

Though dicey - I might put a bet out on 5th to see what happens - you have been driving the betting and your door cards resemble a Broadway - semi-bluff equity in action.

In this situation, you really needed to know how these two play - now you know.

Also it seems a lot of the Donky Bingo players then try to steal with their boards when they haven't invested any bluff equity into it.

Now that you are out of the way he check-raises the BI to see if he is bluffing - his first real poker move of the hand and you are behind him now unable to call two bets with naked aces - I think he knows this - so perhaps not so Donkish but given starters yes.

So you bounce, and surprise surprise Mr. Q74 hits his Pokerstar miracle - the BI may have had a low (you didn't show his hand) that was rivered by the guy who shouldn't have been in the hand in the first place.

So collusion no - just Pokerstar Bingo at it's finest.

That's my 2 cents.

[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[Raxxmataxx]

Seat 7 started with (73)4 and hit the Q on the river. Then the site shuffled his cards at showdown and it looked like he started with (Q7)4.

Lots of players don't play a 4-low aggressively. You can't discount a made low on 5th.

Seat 7's most probable hand is precisely 44 + a 4-low. The next one is two pair. He's not betting out because he wants to knock hero out and cut down competition for high, but don't want to put in 3 bets against the probable made low.

BI doesn't need to have a wheel draw to destroy aces here. He just needs a made low. Any will do. And if he's the least bit passive his play is very consistent with exactly that.

Betting 5th is disastrous. Even if you by luck are up against two paired lowdraws you're still in a world of pain. It's a checkfold, period.

The bring-ins hand wasn't shown because this is Full Tilt and they don't show losing hands. His hand probalby was 86, 83 or 82 though. There's just a very small range of hands for his hole cards to begin with, given that he was scooped, and that's even smaller if we want them to be a little bit consistent with his betting.

Any other low hole cards and he would have had a better low, any pair and he would've beat the pair of fours. It's pretty unlikely he went haywire with a busted flushdraw. Any straightdraws would've taken at least half the pot.

Bluff equity isn't something you invest, it's the extra part of the pot you get when someone folds a better hand.

[SapphireMoon]

[ QUOTE ]
Seat 7 started with (73)4 and hit the Q on the river. Then the site shuffled his cards at showdown and it looked like he started with (Q7)4.

[/ QUOTE ]

So Full Tilt it is then... hate that they do this - makes hand history useless.

Ah.... that makes more sense for starters. Because his fifth street bet didn't make sense with a Q starter. I still think it's odd that he check raises at this point and isolates with a pair of 4s.

So still think that they are not colluding just newbie players. 44s raise should have been on 4th and not fifth with the wheel board out.

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]

So Full Tilt it is then... hate that they do this - makes hand history useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hardly. Personally, I don't like the non-shuffled hole cards on Stars. It encourages people to play better, and it exposes me as a fraud.

[betgo]

The guy with 37244 had a good hand on 5th street and it was a good play to jam. These guys don't know you have split aces. It is likely you have a ace with a concealed pair, or maybe a 3-card low that bricked out. Whatever you have, it is hard for you to continue with your board against their boards.

The fold is OK, but you could also have just called them down. Problem is you are playing for half the pot and they both can scoop.