SNG mid-game: opening on the small blind 15 BB

[Pudge714]

What sort of reshoving range do you give to your opponents?
What sort of calling range do you give to your opponents?

[JSH06]

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b) An "early" 15BB push might get noticed by your opponent(s) and cause them to call wider vs your future pushes. This is especially true if called and you have to show down a 'non-premium' hand (ie: an "image killer"). Taking a tiny (0.1% too 0.3%) unexploitable push now could end up costing you many times more on your later pushes and thus also make the the push -EV.

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For your image to 'be killed' your opponents would have to see your hand which means you won the hand (or maybe you tied). So I don't really think you're costing yourself "many times more". You move up to a comfort zone spot where you have the majority of the table covered. They will still fear your pushes, plus losing cannot knock you out.

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Yep, I did say "must also take into account the likely advantage (if any) you will have vs your opponents if you double up" and agree that after you double up you may be able to make up for the wider calling ranges with the more dominating stack.

I'm still fairly inclined to fold in alot of situations like this though for a few "image related" reasons:

1) I still think that passing up a 0.1%-0.3% edge here (even 0.5% in some cases) can keep a tighter image and let you get away with more exploitable "ATC pushes" with higher blinds (where a 5-10% wider calling range can be the difference between huge -EV and huge +EV).

2) If the donks see you push 15BB here and then a couple of hands later you get a monster and try to raise 2.5-3BB they might be less likely to pay you off.

3) It might cost me on other tables and/or in future games if a donk thinks I'm pushing too wide and then starts to spite call me more - I don't think it would occur to an average donk that these were unexploitable 15BB pushes (it's not obvious unless you look into it with SNGPT, etc) and if you start doing things that they don't do themselves I then think it sticks in their memory much more...

If I played against better players (who understood what I was doing) and/or my edge was less when we got into the <10BB range then I would (have to) take more of these pushes.

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Um, yeah

[Pudge714]

Since nobody responded to my post I'm going to do all the heavy lifting here.
When you open the following will happen.
Better hands will call.
Worse hands will call.
Worse hands will fold.
Hands you should call if he reshoves will reshove
Hands you should fold to a reshove will reshove.

If he shove the following will happen
Worse hands will fold
Better hands will fold
Better hands will call.

Hands which will fold to an open will also fold to an openshove so we don't need to worry how to play vs. villain when he has these hands.

Hands which call an openshove will reshove over an open (assuming no trapping with AA). Against that range you should almost always be folding to a reshove unless he is calling an open shove and reshvoing incredibly wide.

Clearly in this case raise/fold>openshove because you can't call his reshove profitably and when he has a better hand you will be risking significantly less chips. One criticsm of the above is that if a guy is reshoving wide he can exploit you, however if a guy is reshoving that wide raise calling is better than openshoving since you want him to reshove with worse hands hands.

The main thing I am ignoring in this whole post is how profitable you can play when people will call out of the blinds and you have position, possibly the best hand and the impetus.

[JacJacAtk]

Hero is SB, and won't have position if we see a flop.

[Pudge714]

Wow that whole write up was assuming we were on the Button. As is I would probably shove 33 and limp everything else.

[JacJacAtk]

Doesn't limping just invite a shove we can't call from player 3 most of the time?

And while I realize that 33 is going to be the hardest of these 3 to play post-flop most of the time, isn't shoving only 33 from this group pretty exploitable.

[Slim Pickens]

Let's start with a plot of $EV vs. BB's hand range. "Hand range" can be one of two things.

<ul type="square">[*]The value of open-pushing against a given calling range, or...[*]The value of raising 2.5 BB against a given over-pushing range and calling every time.[/list]

So what sort of hand ranges should be assigned to opponents?

i) calls a 3 BB raise with 25% {22+,A2+,K9s+,QTs+,KTo+} minus the top 5% {TT+,AQ+}, which he pushes; calls a 15 BB push with top 10% {55+,A8s+,ATo}

ii) any top 15% {33+,A8o+,A4s+,KTs+} is an all-in hand, either pushing over any action or calling a push; also calls the 3 BB raise with {A4o-A7o,A2s,A3s,KQo} for a total of 20%.

iii) calls a push with top 15%; pushes over a 3 BB raise with top 25% {22+,A2+,K9s+,QTs+,KTo+}

So now with all of that, what is your play with A7o, KTs, and 33? For now, assume you're subject to Irieguy's Hierarchy of Needs and must satisfy your Need to Call any re-raise all-in. Also, pretend like any postflop play is totally neutral. Later, I'll get to raise/folding, limping, and playing a flop.

[Pudge714]

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Doesn't limping just invite a shove we can't call from player 3 most of the time?

And while I realize that 33 is going to be the hardest of these 3 to play post-flop most of the time, isn't shoving only 33 from this group pretty exploitable.

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What you are saying is all very true against a competent player, but the hypothetical villain isn't competent.

[JacJacAtk]

Notwithstanding potential better ways to play it, you can shove ATC at player 1, and almost ATC at player 3 if these are their real ranges, and all three hands in question are nice profitable (+.4%) shoves vs player 2.

Maybe I need to learn to play other than push/fold, but I get the feeling I should just quit replying until other people get the answers at the end of this thread, 'cause I'm just seeing more reasons to shove here.

I mean, if I have time to think about how to play these without shoving in game, shouldn't I just be playing more tables?

[ymu]

I haven't responded to this (excellent) thread yet because I didn't have anything very interesting to say. That's still true, obv ...

I'm happy shoving all 9, but it might be more +EV to raise instead against villains i and ii. I don't see how to assess this fully without reads on postflop play, and specifically on BvB postflop play. They don't always overpush preflop and we're OOP postflop, so I need a feel for how likely it is I can steal/win a bigger pot or lose/get robbed of a big pot postflop, compared to the value of open-pushing pre.

A simple 5-card match-up post-flop doesn't capture this info, and the 3 card match-up isn't much more helpful without knowing their propensity to float/stack off with different types of hands, plus aggression and bluffiness in BvB spots.

In general, if I'm worried about playing them OOP post-flop, I'm pushing to make life easier.