NL25 when c-bets don´t work (theory)

[WantToLearn]

Ok, so I still suck when playing against gamblers.
The game is NL25. In theory, a table w/ HUGE average pot and HIGH flop seen rates is a dream. In practice, I feel confused when my usual c-bets don´t work at all.

Say we are at a table where every normal sized preflop raise gets 3 callers or more. A flop c-bet never takes it down. As for big river bets, big bets and big calls usualy mean big hands. They are loose when they enter, but they need some kind of real hand to get stacked. So, money must be there to be made after turn card comes but before showdown, right? Second-barreling the turn w/ air often is probably sort of +EV w/ ultra high variance.

So, what´s our <u>preflop play</u> with:
1. small and middlish pocket pairs, early and middle position, first in or one limper before us?
2. AQ in middle position first in, or one limper before us?

Again, lots of callers are to be expected and a flop c-bet doesn´t win the pot.

Thank you!

[TRWIII]

1. This is the best kind of game for these hands. If you can get 4 people to the flop with PP's and can extract money on the flop and turn when you spike a set you're in good shape. Make a normal raise with em like you normally would and hope the table plays to form. This also applied to suited connectors.

2. These kinds of hands decrease a bit in value. First in from mid position, I make larger than normal raises with them to try to thin the field as much as possible. Same with trying to isolate the limper in front of you. You dont want lots of company with these hands (especially if they arent suited) so either raise enough to cut down the cold calling percentages of the folks behind you or just dont play the hands (this last option is a bad idea).

TRWIII

[AlexB182]

1) On tables like this, I think that limping/limping behind with small to medium PPs is not a bad play. You want to see flops for a fair price and raising contains the risk that you get 3bet and don't get suficent odds to call for set value. If there is not much 3betting though, raising PPs has the advantage of creating big pots. The downside is though that you'll often have to let them go on the flop, so, as mentionend I really don't mind limping.
2) AQos is one of the kind of hands that (IMO) don't have much value in those games as TPGK will very often be no good. Same goes for AJ and,to a lesser extent, KQ. Suitedness improves them as you have a at least some nut potential. Due to these reasons I'd only play this hands in very good position. In contrast to this, SCs go really up in value on tables like this. And of course you are right, CBs don't make too much sense here most of the time...

[TheBad]

1) If your PF raise gets 3 callers or more, always raise to 4BBs. Perfect table for PPs !
2) I would limp or make a big raise.

[TRWIII]

I can't see limping AQo ever being a good idea, much less at a table like this. What's you reasoning behind it? (Maybe I'm missing something obvious.)

TRWIII

[the_main]

Stop c-betting into a lot of people with no hand -- nothing wrong with check/folding, even as the pre-flop raiser. A lot of times you're just looking to 'fit or fold'.

At 25NL you can just be patient and valuebet your big hands hard and show a steady profit.

[Luckyspikes]

1) 80% raise 4bb + 1 / limper, 20% limp

2) 4 bb + 1 100% of the time

[threads13]

1. So, they are offering you high implied odds. This is a good spot to limp PP's as these players will be calling down light enough that you will make a huge amount. The benefits of raising PP's to get HU is minimized when you have to commit a lot preflop or when you are not gaining a lot of FE. You could consider a pot sweetening raise, but that usually isn't too necessary with these 100BB stacks.

2. At this sort of table I don't see any reason not to raise AQ. You should raise an amount that will allow you to easily commit postflop with this hand. Said another way, you can probably get away with raising a bit more than the "4BB + 1BB per limper" dogma preflop.

[No1Addict]

I play NL20 on Titan and it's the same game you've described. As the_main said, value betting good hands gets the money.

You don't need to play scared play scared befor the flop because cbets are not very efective. Just don't cbet without a hand into more than two people. I would also be useful to try to identify who will fold to a double barrel and attack those players.

As for the pre-flop questions.

1. I limp most of the time with PPs up to sevens in early,middle position. A raise from time to time is ok, but you need to keep in mind that you're trying to get the right odds to flop a set.

2. AQ, AJ type of hands in middle position deserve a raise I think. You're clearly ahead of their range and you need to make them pay to draw, plus you need to thin the field with these hands. I think you'll get a lot of value when you hit against people calling with dominated hands.

[AlexB182]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you'll get a lot of value when you hit against people calling with dominated hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that is exactly the problem you have in those loose, passive games: AQ, AJ might be good before the flop but even with the raise you will be mostly playing against 2 - 4 players. In these situations, AQ and AJ lose a lot of their value because they are mainly top pair hands with a good or decent kicker. BUT: top pair hands are more often than not not enough to win the pot is these special games, therefore raising PF does not have to much value...AQs and AJs are a little different and really should be raised, especially from LP. Reason: if you flop top pair with NFD or even BDFD, this increases the value of your hand a lot.

As an example: say you raise with AJ from MP and 2 player call behind you, which you know are very loose call and call raises liberally. Flop comes A76. You CBet and get raised. How do you continue here. In a normal game you might be afraid of bein outkicked or up against a set, but here there are even more threats, especially two pairs like 76 or A7 which could easily by in a loose players range. DUC what I mean?