Gus' 6,4 Hearts Call Against Tony G on PAD

[theman]

alright, what you guys think about Gus' call of Tony G on PAD last week?

it was down to the final three (Gus, Ferguson, and Tony G) with Gus as the short stack and Tony G as the chip leader.

Tony G raises with AK and Chris Ferguson folds. Gus looks down at 6,4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and thinks and think. Finally he flat calls!...

To me this was the dumbest/worst played hand I've ever seen. First, that call represented 1/3!!! of Gus' short stack. That's a lot to call off with 6,4 hearts. If he felt Tony G was weak, he should have moved in to take it down before flop (at least have fold equity). By calling there, what was he trying to hit? Sure, if your opponent has a big hand, 6,4 is probably live...And suited connectors are good hands to bust a premium hand with. BUT, the problem is that suited connectors are better played in ring games and with good implied odds. Gus was't going to get paid off that much even if he hit a miracle straight. Most times, he's going to lose that hand.

And what was he TRYING to hit? A lone 6 or 4? ...So you call 1/3 of your stack and hit a lone 6 or 4...now you commit your whole stack and tourney on that? What if Tony G has an overpair...you're dead (and he KNOWS Tony probably won't fold after the flop no matter what hits, because it's so little to call).

So other than a miracle flush/straight, which is statistically not llikely to hit (esp in shorthand versus ring game) and that he won't get good implied odds to bust Tony, AND that Tony won't fold to him post-flop....What value is there in calling Tony's raise with 6,4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] when you're the short stack at the table?

IMO, he should have been more patient, waited for two big cards or a decent hand to move all-in. The 6,4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] showed frustration to me. It seemed like he purposely wanted to suck out and prove himself with those low-equity cards. Gus seems to enjoy doing that to ppl and it work well...IF you're a big stack or even even stacked...but not short stacked.

What did others think of that hand?
-TheMan

[Dan87]

have you ever heard of the stop n go?

[theman]

[ QUOTE ]
have you ever heard of the stop n go?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't know what that is. could you explain?

[chicken10der]

The same thing I tried to explain in the other thread that you made about Gus playing on PAD.

[theman]

so stop and go is to call a raise and then go all-in afterwards regardless of what hits?

[theman]

[ QUOTE ]
so stop and go is to call a raise and then go all-in afterwards regardless of what hits?

[/ QUOTE ]

if so, why would Gus use that here with the short stack? he knows that no matter what hits, Tony won't fold anyways post-flop (since he was he big stack vs Gus' short stack and it would be cheap to call..AND that's EXACTLY what happened as Tony said, "I have to call, it's too little").

i can see how this could be potentially useful if you put your opponent on a bluff/weak and want to just call and go all-in. but given the chip stack ratios, Tony wasn't going to ever fold probably (pre OR post flop).

-TheMan

[pindawg]

Why don't you stop worrying about Gus and start worrying about finding the the "reply" button rather then "post"

[Dromar]

[ QUOTE ]

if so, why would Gus use that here with the short stack? he knows that no matter what hits, Tony won't fold anyways post-flop (since he was he big stack vs Gus' short stack and it would be cheap to call..AND that's EXACTLY what happened as Tony said, "I have to call, it's too little").

i can see how this could be potentially useful if you put your opponent on a bluff/weak and want to just call and go all-in. but given the chip stack ratios, Tony wasn't going to ever fold probably (pre OR post flop).

-TheMan

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're focusing too much on what Tony had, and not enough on what he could have had.

Given the odds preflop, Tony's getting 3:1 on his money, and he's not folding no matter what he raised with. I think we can all agree on that. If he had had, say, 8c7c, he would have called with such great odds.

On the flop, which he will probably miss (and Gus will probably miss too), he decided he had to call with AK. He didn't have odds, but he called because there was a chance Gus was doing this with an unmade hand of some type, in which case it would be a terrible mistake for Tony to fold. But he's NOT calling any flop with any hand there. He had to (smartly) consider with AK, but it would be much tougher to call on the same flop with QJ or something like that. And if he had something more speculative and missed, he would have folded(for example if he had Ts9s on the same flop).

So Gus' intent was obviously to try a stop-n'-go. This way, he can win by either catching a flop, or making Tony fold a weak hand (which he can do after the flop, but not before).

Also, don't forget that the game was threehanded by that time. The fact that the raise was 1/3 of Gus' stack meant that the BB was already 1/9 of it. It's not like he has much time to make his move, and this seemed like a great opportunity.

[theman]

i'm not sure i understood what you're trying to say here. feel free to repost in very short and simple terms your point.

my point was simply that the call didn't make sense in any way to me.

a.) Gus was a big dog to any hand Tony G. might have.
b.) Gus gets no fold equity pre OR post flop since he would've already called off 1/3 his stack. If he raises Tony preflop, Tony has to call with any two cards. If he bets all in post flop, Tony has to call (which is exactly what happened).
c.) Gus was a short stack, so why flat call that raise? Either move in or fold. I'd prefer a simple fold, since you know Tony's gonna call and that 6,4 hearts sucks big time.

Does the stop and go somehow do something that I haven't picked up/understood? I just don't see how Gus to do much by calling there with that hand. His chip stack was so low he had no power there.

-TheMan

[Rottersod]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not sure i understood what you're trying to say here. feel free to repost in very short and simple terms your point.

my point was simply that the call didn't make sense in any way to me.

a.) Gus was a big dog to any hand Tony G. might have.
b.) Gus gets no fold equity pre OR post flop since he would've already called off 1/3 his stack. If he raises Tony preflop, Tony has to call with any two cards. If he bets all in post flop, Tony has to call (which is exactly what happened).
c.) Gus was a short stack, so why flat call that raise? Either move in or fold. I'd prefer a simple fold, since you know Tony's gonna call and that 6,4 hearts sucks big time.

Does the stop and go somehow do something that I haven't picked up/understood? I just don't see how Gus to do much by calling there with that hand. His chip stack was so low he had no power there.

-TheMan

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think that Gus was a big dog to any hand that Tony might have had? In 3 handed tourney Tony could have been raising with any 2 cards and 6 4 is almost certainly not a big dog.



No matter the flop Gus is going all in and he knows that Tony knows that so if Gus hits even a small piece with a pair or a draw the odds are even better that Tony's hand has not improved and Gus can double up. By calling instead of rasing he gave himself a way out if the flop had been crazy. Remember, this was a winner take all so he was playing to double up at this point. That's all.