folding kings... i know ppl hate this but bear with me.. - Page 6

TheWorstPlayer · #51 12-20-2006, 04:44 PM

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TWP the problem is if we cold call everyone puts us on a small pair and then if we perk up post flop they think we have a set, so better hands call and worse hands fold.

i like the fold in OP.

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oh yea, cause everyone just folds top pair when he hit our sets...

flawless_victory · #52 12-20-2006, 04:46 PM

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TWP, I am all for not 4-betting KK PF very often, but in this situation it'll be OOP 3-way w/out reads which will make for alot of nasty post-flop decisions.

Also, I am surprised how many people support folding this. Folding KK for 100BB w/out a read is unheard of if you ask me. (If anything, we have an indication that villain is not very good due to the min.raise).

If this whole thread is some-sort of sarcasm orgie, I apologize for being stupid.

FWIW, I played this hand yesterday and I DID have a read that he was a TAG decent player.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($444)
BB ($502.10)
UTG ($495)
MP ($136.70)
CO ($415.20)
Button ($734)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, MP calls $4, CO calls $4, Button raises to $22, Hero (poster) raises to $62, 1 fold, MP folds, CO folds, Button raises to $200, Hero calls $442 (All-In), Button calls $244.

Flop: ($962) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($962) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($962) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $962

Results in white below:
Hero has Kd Kh (two pair, kings and sevens).
Button has 6c 4c (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins $896. Button wins $66.

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well now i have a read that u are an idiot... whats ur point?

kongo_totte · #53 12-20-2006, 05:01 PM

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TWP, I am all for not 4-betting KK PF very often, but in this situation it'll be OOP 3-way w/out reads which will make for alot of nasty post-flop decisions.

Also, I am surprised how many people support folding this. Folding KK for 100BB w/out a read is unheard of if you ask me. (If anything, we have an indication that villain is not very good due to the min.raise).

If this whole thread is some-sort of sarcasm orgie, I apologize for being stupid.

FWIW, I played this hand yesterday and I DID have a read that he was a TAG decent player.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($444)
BB ($502.10)
UTG ($495)
MP ($136.70)
CO ($415.20)
Button ($734)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, MP calls $4, CO calls $4, Button raises to $22, Hero (poster) raises to $62, 1 fold, MP folds, CO folds, Button raises to $200, Hero calls $442 (All-In), Button calls $244.

Flop: ($962) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($962) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($962) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $962

Results in white below:
Hero has Kd Kh (two pair, kings and sevens).
Button has 6c 4c (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins $896. Button wins $66.

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well now i have a read that u are an idiot... whats ur point?

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Haha. What's with all the hostility? Of course not much can be concluded from that one hand (which I think there is no doubt I played correctly FWIW). I am not sure what's going on on FT, stars etc. since the party ban, but at party NL400, my hand and OP are such no-brainer all ins I can't really believe it's under debate.

Again, if there is some sarcasm here I don't get, I apologize.

Surf · #54 12-20-2006, 05:05 PM

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well now i have a read that u are an idiot... whats ur point?

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Haha. What's with all the hostility? Of course not much can be concluded from that one hand (which I think there is no doubt I played correctly FWIW). I am not sure what's going on on FT, stars etc. since the party ban, but at party NL400, my hand and OP are such no-brainer all ins I can't really believe it's under debate.

Again, if there is some sarcasm here I don't get, I apologize.

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In your hand the ranges are wayyyy wider. Villain is raising after limpers which most agg players will do with a really wide range, then you 3bet from the blinds which could again be a really wide range, so it's certainly within the realm of possibility that he thinks you are restealing and 4bets u with air, or AK/QQ or something since he will expect you to fold to the reraise a significant %.

Surf

kongo_totte · #55 12-20-2006, 05:09 PM

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well now i have a read that u are an idiot... whats ur point?

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Haha. What's with all the hostility? Of course not much can be concluded from that one hand (which I think there is no doubt I played correctly FWIW). I am not sure what's going on on FT, stars etc. since the party ban, but at party NL400, my hand and OP are such no-brainer all ins I can't really believe it's under debate.

Again, if there is some sarcasm here I don't get, I apologize.

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In your hand the ranges are wayyyy wider. Villain is raising after limpers which most agg players will do with a really wide range, then you 3bet from the blinds which could again be a really wide range, so it's certainly within the realm of possibility that he thinks you are restealing and 4bets u with air, or AK/QQ or something since he will expect you to fold to the reraise a significant %.

Surf

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You seem to assume your unknown villain is thinking at a level most NL400ers do not IMHO.

jkkkk · #56 12-20-2006, 05:10 PM

Surf, this is an easy call.

Melchiades · #57 12-20-2006, 05:13 PM

I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] when people post hands that are not even remotly related to the OP to illustrate a point.

PatInTheHat · #58 12-20-2006, 05:47 PM

I can't fold Kings here. I think there are some spots where it's the right play but villians like this can show up with all kinds of retarded hands.

wtfsvi · #59 12-20-2006, 07:37 PM

No need to be rude and call people idiots.

I would strongly consider folding this KK, but this hand is our only read on villain and the most important thing it tells us that he sucks at poker. That makes folding KK for 100bb really difficult, even though his line screams AA.

captainwacky · #60 01-04-2007, 09:46 AM

I seriously think I fold less than anyone on the planet, but I still think i could fold the OP's kings. In the kratzer hand vs. straate, well, I never fold anything against straate (see opening statement). But seriously, for those advocating flatcalling the [censored] minraise, it's terrible. You're going to be so lost as to either of their ranges, because while the eventual process of this hand pf was the minraiser establishing his hand quite clearly, flatcalling will do two things: It will let the original opener to call obviously, and then on Qxx Jxx QJx or really any semi-coordinated flop, you're going to possibly end up in a tough situation.

All in all, I just like a fold without reads. I hate folding in general though, so it kills me to say you should fold KK for 110 bbs pf.