folding kings... i know ppl hate this but bear with me.. - Page 5

Chaoslord · #41 12-20-2006, 02:41 PM

i never folded kings preflop in my life. might be a leak [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Surf · #42 12-20-2006, 03:06 PM

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Will people please not re-raise KK in this spot? If you want to re-raise 86s in this spot, fine. If you want to re-raise AA in this spot, fine. But I think KK is the worst possible hand to re-raise in this spot. And it is ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE if you are going to fold to a push...

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TWP,

could you expand on this a bit? I thought it was fairly standard, we don't really want to flatcall a minRR w/ KK and let utg in behind us, and I don't think we get pushed over very often at all.

Surf

TheWorstPlayer · #43 12-20-2006, 03:09 PM

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Will people please not re-raise KK in this spot? If you want to re-raise 86s in this spot, fine. If you want to re-raise AA in this spot, fine. But I think KK is the worst possible hand to re-raise in this spot. And it is ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE if you are going to fold to a push...

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TWP,

could you expand on this a bit? I thought it was fairly standard, we don't really want to flatcall a minRR w/ KK and let utg in behind us, and I don't think we get pushed over very often at all.

Surf

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Why do you care about letting in UTG? Both of these guys will have pocket pairs or Ax the VAST majority of the time. We will know precisely how to play against them postflop and they won't know how big our hand is if we cold-call. And cold-calling gives us the best chance to get away from/bust AA.

kongo_totte · #44 12-20-2006, 04:13 PM

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$450 eff stacks.

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UTG raises to 14, utg+1 reraises to $24,

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How is this not the easiest call ever? Fish will have AK sooo often.

CopTHIS · #45 12-20-2006, 04:16 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
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Will people please not re-raise KK in this spot? If you want to re-raise 86s in this spot, fine. If you want to re-raise AA in this spot, fine. But I think KK is the worst possible hand to re-raise in this spot. And it is ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE if you are going to fold to a push...

[/ QUOTE ]

TWP,

could you expand on this a bit? I thought it was fairly standard, we don't really want to flatcall a minRR w/ KK and let utg in behind us, and I don't think we get pushed over very often at all.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you care about letting in UTG? Both of these guys will have pocket pairs or Ax the VAST majority of the time. We will know precisely how to play against them postflop and they won't know how big our hand is if we cold-call. And cold-calling gives us the best chance to get away from/bust AA.

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Geeze I really really hate flat calling the min raise there OOP. In fact, I think it's pretty bad tbh.

Bm7b5 · #46 12-20-2006, 04:21 PM

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yesterday. villian is straate.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($914)
SB ($1009)
Hero ($1300.70)
UTG ($1103.50)
MP ($1352)
CO ($1551.65)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO raises to $40, 1 fold, SB raises to $130, Hero raises to $350, CO folds, SB raises to $1009, Hero...

do you fold here? basically same thing i think.

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this is AA more often than not in my limited experience.

jkkkk · #47 12-20-2006, 04:24 PM

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also i like the fold in the OP.

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I'm calling bs

mak15 · #48 12-20-2006, 04:25 PM

TWP the problem is if we cold call everyone puts us on a small pair and then if we perk up post flop they think we have a set, so better hands call and worse hands fold.

i like the fold in OP.

Surf · #49 12-20-2006, 04:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Will people please not re-raise KK in this spot? If you want to re-raise 86s in this spot, fine. If you want to re-raise AA in this spot, fine. But I think KK is the worst possible hand to re-raise in this spot. And it is ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE if you are going to fold to a push...

[/ QUOTE ]

TWP,

could you expand on this a bit? I thought it was fairly standard, we don't really want to flatcall a minRR w/ KK and let utg in behind us, and I don't think we get pushed over very often at all.

Surf

[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you care about letting in UTG? Both of these guys will have pocket pairs or Ax the VAST majority of the time. We will know precisely how to play against them postflop and they won't know how big our hand is if we cold-call. And cold-calling gives us the best chance to get away from/bust AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why can't UTG have some suited stuff like JTs / QTs / 75s or something?

Even if i knew they both had Ax or PPs i'm not so sure i'd want to take a flop 3way with the 3rd player getting great implieds.
if the board is Axx i guess i have to c-f, or risk paying off an ace...if the board is non-threatening I want to try and take overpairs to value-town but at the risk of paying off sets - obv i'm not going to back it with my stack every time but i'll be making ftop mistakes against sets in the process of trying to extract value.
Sure it'll be great to flop set over set occasionally but this just seems like a nightmare oop.

Surf

kongo_totte · #50 12-20-2006, 04:31 PM

TWP, I am all for not 4-betting KK PF very often, but in this situation it'll be OOP 3-way w/out reads which will make for alot of nasty post-flop decisions.

Also, I am surprised how many people support folding this. Folding KK for 100BB w/out a read is unheard of if you ask me. (If anything, we have an indication that villain is not very good due to the min.raise).

If this whole thread is some-sort of sarcasm orgie, I apologize for being stupid.

FWIW, I played this hand yesterday and I DID have a read that he was a TAG decent player.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($444)
BB ($502.10)
UTG ($495)
MP ($136.70)
CO ($415.20)
Button ($734)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, MP calls $4, CO calls $4, Button raises to $22, Hero (poster) raises to $62, 1 fold, MP folds, CO folds, Button raises to $200, Hero calls $442 (All-In), Button calls $244.

Flop: ($962) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($962) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($962) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $962

Results in white below:
Hero has Kd Kh (two pair, kings and sevens).
Button has 6c 4c (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins $896. Button wins $66.