KK in NL cash

[holyfield5]

i play 100NL, the players are plenty aggressive there. the hand i posted was 50NL not 25NL, calling an all in takes a stronger hand than pushing all in. folding KK is indeed wrong without some very very strong reads from a nice sample with that player.

Full Tilt Poker
$0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em Ring Game
6 Players
LegoPoker Hand Converter

<font color="black">Stack Sizes</font>
CO: $61.05
BTN: $70.95
SB: $149.65
BB: $193
Hero (UTG): $105.85
MP: $100

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($1.5, 6 players)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $4</font>, MP folds, CO calls $4, BTN calls $4, <font color="red">SB raises to $18</font>, BB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises all in to $105.85</font>, CO folds, BTN folds, SB calls $87.85

<font color="black">Flop:</font> A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($220.7, 2 players)
No action

<font color="black">Turn:</font> A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] ($220.7, 2 players)
No action

<font color="black">River:</font> A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]] ($220.7, 2 players)
No action

<font color="black">Results:</font>
SB had T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (a pair of Tens)
Hero had K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (three of a kind, Kings) and won $217.70
Final Pot: $217.70 ($3.00 rake)

[trumpman84]

My sample size includes people calling my PF AI'S with pocket 44, T8s, AK, AQ, 88, and all kinds of trash.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
i play 100NL, the players are plenty aggressive there.

[/ QUOTE ]
On average, they aren't. Play some NL 600, and see if you say typical NL 100 players are aggressive. I don't fold KK preflop to a 4-bet push in an aggressive game because I know people raise frequently and 3-bet frequently, they don't respect my 3-bets, they more frequently limp-reraise with AA, and so the raise/push represents a much wider range of hands than at NL 100. Of course, at NL 25, the push can mean the player thinks 88 is a great hand because it is a favorable coinflip against AK.

[ QUOTE ]
calling an all in takes a stronger hand than pushing all in.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you get that idea from theorizing what you should do, or from watching what your opponents do on average?

By the way, the player who called all-in with AT in the blind-versus-blind hand was getting better than 2:1. Do you still want to say he needed a better hand to call than to push, so calling all-in meant he would have pushed with AT? That you posted two hands where people pushed with KK in a discussion of whether to call pushes with KK makes me wonder. Why didn't you find plenty of good results at NL 100 from calling pushes with KK? Is it because your database looks like mine and the OP's?

People are typically passive and call too much at NL 100. That you can find hands where people called all-in with weak hands does not mean they are pushing with weak hands often enough to make calling a good gamble.

[jeffnc]

[ QUOTE ]
Then that QQ vs KK situation comes down to the abnormal playing of your opponent. If they do something that you aren't expecting, you can almost read their hand perfectly. It's just like in a tournament, heads-up, someone raises, pushes, raises, raises...etc, and then one hand they limp. That should set off warning bells.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess that's essentially what I'm saying with this post in general. 3-betting and 4-betting are "abnormal behavior" by my opponents, and set off warning bells. From pretty much anyone. I've seen plenty of maniacs who 2 bet like crazy. I'm seeing plenty of bluff raises from aggressive players post flop. I'm not seeing preflop 4 bet maniacs.

[jeffnc]

[ QUOTE ]
People are typically passive and call too much at NL 100. That you can find hands where people called all-in with weak hands does not mean they are pushing with weak hands often enough to make calling a good gamble.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK so are you saying that pushing with KK is virtually always going to be a good idea? I'm trying to figure out the difference between pushing and calling a push with KK. You have some fold equity going for you with KK because the 3rd bet could have been light. But then again do you really want that fold equity?

Let's say you are up against AQ, he raises to $3, you raise to $9, he reraises to $27 and you push your last $91 with $100 stacks. There's $54 in the pot and $73 for him to call which is certainly foldable for him because his odds are poor. You make $27 if he folds and $40 (I think) if he calls, so you really don't want any fold equity here. Against JJ you want him to call even more. So folding equity actually seems to hurt you (obviously you have 0 folding equity against AA.)

Pushing with KK must always be profitable assuming there are some light 3-betters (but that doesn't happen much at the less aggressive lower limits.)

Maybe this boils down to general lower level of aggression in the smaller games (as opposed to idiotic passivity of calling all-in bets with weak hands at the micro limits), which leads to 3-betting and 4-betting definitely signifying premium hands more often. Perhaps the conventional wisdom is geared more toward more aggressive games, and calling with KK in smaller stakes games is not always a no brainer.

[questions]

This is an interesting question actually. I looked at my PT stats yesterday for the first time in a while and found that, unsurprisingly, KK has won for me 79% of the times I played it (AA winning 91% of the time). If you are practicing good bankroll management, you are going to make money on KK over the long-term, IMO.

On a side note I have found that whenever I get dealt a pocket pair, someone else does also. Statistically, that would be slightly more likely to happen.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
People are typically passive and call too much at NL 100. That you can find hands where people called all-in with weak hands does not mean they are pushing with weak hands often enough to make calling a good gamble.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK so are you saying that pushing with KK is virtually always going to be a good idea?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, I said

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] The examples of hands people had when they called all-in are not good for determining their pushing hands. Pushing is different from calling all-in. The people calling all-in may have gotten good pot-odds on the last call, or they might have a tendency to call too much. This doesn't mean they will push with AQ or JJ.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] In some circumstances, it is right to fold KK preflop without a history against a player. The combination of the position, the betting pattern, and the typical behavior of players in a passive game means it can be a bad gamble to call all-in with KK.

I didn't talk about the decision of whether to push with KK.

[ QUOTE ]

Maybe this boils down to general lower level of aggression in the smaller games (as opposed to idiotic passivity of calling all-in bets with weak hands at the micro limits), which leads to 3-betting and 4-betting definitely signifying premium hands more often. Perhaps the conventional wisdom is geared more toward more aggressive games, and calling with KK in smaller stakes games is not always a no brainer.

[/ QUOTE ]
Right. When a maniac pushes, you give the maniac less credit for a strong hand than when a normal player pushes. When a passive player pushes, you should give him credit for a tighter range.

People too often ask, "What is the right play?" Instead, estimate how right it is to make one play versus another. Your estimates should depend on the information you have including the type of game you are in. If you are asked to put $80 in the pot, and you estimate that on average, you are only going to get $60 back, you should fold.

[holyfield5]

like i said, these people called my push with those hands, its much easier to push with them than call a push because you have FE, so if they would call the push, they would push it also in some circumstances but the range is definitely wider than only AA. The guy who had A10 definitely was pushing lighter than AA from the PF battle we were having.

you comment that the guy with A10 was pot committed, but you dont think KK is pot committed by the time you realize they probably have AA? KK is 20% to win against AA and a favorite against all other hands, im pretty sure its pot committed too unless you want to just give up equity.

I definitely have other instances of calling AI with KK and being ahead its just that i didnt feel like sifting through PT for them, i just posted hands from last night.

this thread has dragged on imo, if you want to fold KK be my guest i obv cant convince you guys, but you are giving away money.

[Omahakiller]

Jeffnc.

I had the same problem once. Anytime I would get a player all in preflop with KK - they held either KK or AA. You ask if players are becoming so tight now, that the KK vs AA situation is the only one you will see when you put your fourth reraise in preflop (or third - or whatever).

Now, here's something to think about. Maybe it is a dead give away....because it's you? Maybe the other players haven't gotten insanely good but just realise very fast that YOU are very very tight, and the only reason for you to make these moves are that you have AA or KK - and thus, they will only call you with AA or KK.
When I had this situation I loosened up my game a lot...and in my case I had gotten too tight.

Well as I said...you can think about it...maybe it is you rather than them who has gotten too tight?

Omahakiller

[Xanthro]

When pushing KK pre-flop I've been called a number of times by AA, but I've also been called by silly hands like 22, and lost to them. It's just variance.

Remember, somebody just won a mega lottery with 176 million to 1 odds. With lots of people playing poker odds that seem very unlikely actually occur all the time.

People still play stupid hands, and we remember the KK vs AA beats better than we remember the donkey call that we win.