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#1
10-20-2007, 03:36 AM
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Fold TPTK?? Never!!! Or maybe sometimes?
Part of me thinks I should be folding more often on the river when I have these types of hands (note action), but another part of me says "big pot, go to showdown with TPTK" (and another part says that it doesn't really matter).
Hand #1 PokerStars $1/$2 Limit Hold'em - 6 players Hand Converter Tool from DeucesCracked.com Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] UTG folds, <font color="#FF0000">Hero raises</font>, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls. Flop: (6.00 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font> SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#FF0000">SB raises</font>, BB folds, Hero calls. Turn: (5.00 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> <font color="#FF0000">SB bets</font>, <font color="#FF0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#FF0000">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls. River: (11.00 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> <font color="#FF0000">SB bets</font>, Hero calls. Final Pot: 13.00 BB Hand #2 PokerStars $1/$2 Limit Hold'em - 6 players Hand Converter Tool from DeucesCracked.com Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#FF0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#FF0000">MP 3-bets</font>, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls. Flop: (9.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font> BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#FF0000">MP bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#FF0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#FF0000">MP 3-bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls. Turn: (9.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font> BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#FF0000">MP bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls. River: (12.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font> BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#FF0000">MP bets</font>, BB folds, Hero calls. Final Pot: 14.25 BB 
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#2
10-20-2007, 04:15 AM
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Re: Fold TPTK?? Never!!! Or maybe sometimes?
i struggle with this as well, aaron. actually, i guess i'm one step behind you because mine lately have been 3betting the flop oop and calling down even though villain caps.
i think both of these are fine, especially against 6max unknowns.
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#3
10-20-2007, 07:15 AM
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Re: Fold TPTK?? Never!!! Or maybe sometimes?
[ QUOTE ]
i think both of these are fine, especially against 6max unknowns. [/ QUOTE ] I agree. Altho river in hand 2 is prolly close to a fold against any non-idiot since its 3-way You need some pretty good reads to make a fold good in hand 1. Such a read would often be that villain is weak tightish in which case it would proly be better to just call down from the turn and bet if checked to. Against a weak tight in hand its also a close flop raise altho it certainly is tempting in a multiway pot
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#4
10-20-2007, 09:26 AM
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Post deleted by Ryan Beal
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#5
10-20-2007, 09:30 AM
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Re: Fold TPTK?? Never!!! Or maybe sometimes?
I think this is a more read-dependent situation. Looking for general advice about these two hands is difficult without seeing the history of the villains.
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#6
10-20-2007, 03:16 PM
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Re: Fold TPTK?? Never!!! Or maybe sometimes?
* g *
Frankly, in the heat of battle I believe I would have played the hand exactly as you did. But a closer analysis is as follows: ops raise on the flop seems to show either a pair of tens, a set or a straight draw... after the turn no reason to think that the Q helped him (with the exception of QT for two pair), so his 3-bet tilts towards a set... the river completes a flush draw, but one that the op is very unlikely to be on, it also completes a straight draw, but after the Turn 3-bet that seems unlikely too... so you are probably against a set or perhaps two pair with QT... I know that I would have called the river, but after the analysis it does seem like a bad play, what are you hoping that your op has that you can beat? a worse queen? just a pair of tens? so the question becomes, will he have a worse hand often enough to make the call profitable with 12BBs in the pot for your 1BB call the answer does seem to be no. I believe the only possible exception is when you have a fair read that your op is either extremely aggressive, or apparently on tilt. without that read the call is -EV in my humble opinion... ps. did you suspect that the SB could have called with AA or KK from the blind for deceptive purposes? an affirmative answer shifts the play more to a fold if he is capable of that play... ok, second hand... I have to be frank, if I knew the MP2 to be a maniac, I could have possibly played the hand in a similar fashion. but I believe that heads up confrontation is one of my greatest weaknesses so what I would have done isn't necessarily what I would recommend as the correct play. so presuming villian is a TAG, his 3-bet preflop and 3-bet Turn is just shouting "overpair!! I have an overpairrrrr!!!" I think the best way to play is to check/call the Turn and check/fold the river unimproved... the key question is: is OP capable of playing AK this way, and if so could that situation be just that once in nine times (taking pot odds into account)? I think not, but my judgement may be clouded due to the fact that I probably wouldn't 3-bet with AK on that flop after getting checkraised, which is perhaps a mistake anyway. comments on personal possible weak play appreciated... in the heat of the battle I might have bet the Turn but folded to a raise, but the more I think of this play the worse it gets... but this seems to be something I do actually do... [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
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#8
10-20-2007, 05:57 PM
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Re: Fold TPTK?? Never!!! Or maybe sometimes?
[ QUOTE ]
Aaron, I'm not sure I like the turn raise in hand one. -J [/ QUOTE ] What hand range do you put villain on when he check-raises the flop from SB?
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#9
10-20-2007, 06:07 PM
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Re: Fold TPTK?? Never!!! Or maybe sometimes?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Aaron, I'm not sure I like the turn raise in hand one. -J [/ QUOTE ] What hand range do you put villain on when he check-raises the flop from SB? [/ QUOTE ] w/o a read, I would say at least TPGK+, most likely 2pr. My default read on unknowns, even at 6max, is slightly loose and passive. Because of this I would weigh his range at 2pr+ at prolly somewhere around 70%. -J
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#10
10-20-2007, 06:08 PM
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Re: Fold TPTK?? Never!!! Or maybe sometimes?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Aaron, I'm not sure I like the turn raise in hand one. -J [/ QUOTE ] What hand range do you put villain on when he check-raises the flop from SB? [/ QUOTE ] w/o a read, I would say at least TPGK+, most likely 2pr. My default read on unknowns, even at 6max, is slightly loose and passive. Because of this I would weigh his range at 2pr+ at prolly somewhere around 70%. -J [/ QUOTE ] So to be clear: Flop check-raise = 2 pair or better a huge percent of the time?
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